From richspk at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 06:15:23 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Wed Jan  2 06:15:39 2008
Subject: [G4] Panic after OSX 10.3 install; Can't open disk drive
In-Reply-To: <8755D7F8-395D-4F0C-82B9-AA15C0563CEB@jps.net>
Message-ID: <003201c84d49$eaebea60$37d816ac@cytyc.com>

Mactracker won't tell you if a previous owner took out the superdrive and
replaced it with a simple CD drive.  That seems unlikely, but it's possible.
Once you get into OS X, go to the Apple menu and pick "About this Mac".
Then click on "More Info" (I'm sitting at a Windows PC right now, so I might
have the wording slightly wrong).  Look for "Disc Burning" to find out what
drive is really in your iMac.

As for ejecting the CD, you can do that in Open Firmware.  Right after you
turn it on, hold down Command+Option+O+F to get into the Open Firmware.  It
will tell you when to release the keys.  Type "eject cd:" to eject the CD,
then type "eject cd:" again to close the tray (unless it's a slot-load
drive).  Finally, type "shut-down" to turn off your iMac.

-- 
Rich

> -----Original Message-----
> From: g4-bounces@listserver.themacintoshguy.com [mailto:g4-
> bounces@listserver.themacintoshguy.com] On Behalf Of Rick Barrett
> 
> Hi G4 Gurus,
> 
> I sure need some help.
> 
> Just got a 15" flat panel G4 iMac (Codename Tessera, P80) that had OS
> 10.2 on it, but lacked system or dock prefs!
> 
> Mactracker says this 800 MHz model shipped with a CD-RW/DVD-R
> "SuperDrive", but when I put my OS X10.4 install DVD in it it didn't
> spin up, but ejected it after a few seconds, so I then decided to
> install 10.3 and worry about the drive later.
> 
<snip>
> 
> Not only that, I can't restart on any  disk except the 10.3 install
> CD (which just eventually gets me back to the panic) and can't open
> the disk drive (no paperclip hole like every other Mac i've ever
> had), mouse button down on restart doesn't work, F12 doesn't work!
> What now???

From gifutiger at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 08:13:58 2008
From: gifutiger at gmail.com (Harry Freeman)
Date: Wed Jan  2 08:14:10 2008
Subject: [G4] Panic after OSX 10.3 install; Can't open disk drive
In-Reply-To: <8755D7F8-395D-4F0C-82B9-AA15C0563CEB@jps.net>
References: <8755D7F8-395D-4F0C-82B9-AA15C0563CEB@jps.net>
Message-ID: <B74B2133-7053-4A1C-A799-859F9B375E00@gmail.com>

Greetings,

If you can boot into the OS 10.3 install disk, you should be able to  
open the Disk Utility that is part of that CD, then run the Disk  
Format option for your HD, Next try installing the OS 10.3 operating  
system. Or perhaps you might want to run "Repair" first and see if  
there is problems with the disk.
----------------------------------------------------

On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Rick Barrett wrote:

> Hi G4 Gurus,
>
> I sure need some help.
>
> Just got a 15" flat panel G4 iMac (Codename Tessera, P80) that had  
> OS 10.2 on it, but lacked system or dock prefs!
>
> Mactracker says this 800 MHz model shipped with a CD-RW/DVD-R  
> "SuperDrive", but when I put my OS X10.4 install DVD in it it didn't  
> spin up, but ejected it after a few seconds, so I then decided to  
> install 10.3 and worry about the drive later.
>
> I ran disk one of the OSX 10.3 Install and all looked good through  
> "Optimizing System Performance" until suddenly I ended up with the  
> dreaded:
>
> panic (cpu 0) Unable to find driver for this platform.
> backtrace 0x008c2f4	0x0002a7a0	0x001f2204	0x001d4c5c	0x001d56cc	 
> 0x001d5d6c	0x00037430	0x00037364
> No debugger configured -- dumping debug information
> version string : Darwin Kernel Version 1.3
> Thu Mar 1 06:54:40 PST 2001: root :xnu/xnu-123.5.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC
> DBAT0: 00000000	00000000
> DBAT1: 00000000	00000000
> DBAT2: 80001FFE	8000003A
> DBAT3: 90001FFE	9000003A
> MSR=00001030
> backtrace: 0x0008c420	0x0002a7a0	 0x001001f2204	0x00104e4c	 
> 0x00104e4c	0x001d56cc	0x001d5d6c	0x001c621c	0x00037430	0x00037364
> panic: We are hanging here...
>
> (Ever hopeful, I tried the install twice, same results, now I'm stuck.
>
> Not only that, I can't restart on any  disk except the 10.3 install  
> CD (which just eventually gets me back to the panic) and can't open  
> the disk drive (no paperclip hole like every other Mac i've ever  
> had), mouse button down on restart doesn't work, F12 doesn't work!
> What now???
>
> Rick in 998133
>
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
>

From ewood at izoom.net  Wed Jan  2 10:38:08 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Wed Jan  2 10:38:19 2008
Subject: [G4] Panic after OSX 10.3 install; Can't open disk drive
In-Reply-To: <003201c84d49$eaebea60$37d816ac@cytyc.com>
References: <003201c84d49$eaebea60$37d816ac@cytyc.com>
Message-ID: <5C625CB3-3A20-40DE-9F3E-2C75273449B0@izoom.net>


Am Jan 2, 2008 um 8:15 AM schrieb Richard Klein:

> Mactracker won't tell you if a previous owner took out the  
> superdrive and
> replaced it with a simple CD drive.  That seems unlikely, but it's  
> possible.
> Once you get into OS X, go to the Apple menu and pick "About this  
> Mac".
> Then click on "More Info" (I'm sitting at a Windows PC right now,  
> so I might
> have the wording slightly wrong).  Look for "Disc Burning" to find  
> out what
> drive is really in your iMac.
>
> As for ejecting the CD, you can do that in Open Firmware.  Right  
> after you
> turn it on, hold down Command+Option+O+F to get into the Open  
> Firmware.  It
> will tell you when to release the keys.  Type "eject cd:" to eject  
> the CD,
> then type "eject cd:" again to close the tray (unless it's a slot-load
> drive).  Finally, type "shut-down" to turn off your iMac.
>
> -- 
> Rich

Actually, I think you can just hold command - E during boot to make  
it eject.

My first thought here is, try different RAM. If you don't have extras  
to put in, see if there are two sticks in there so you can try one at  
a time. There's little else that's likely to cause a panic at boot  
time, though clearing PRAM and NVRAM settings might help.

My last thought is, try a different install disc. And maybe that  
should be your first effort after getting Panther out of the drive.  
Start with the most simple, of course. If you have no other Mac boot  
discs around, try a freely downloadable Linux disc. Some offer little  
netboot images that are quite small and can therefore be quickly  
downloaded and burned to a disc.

Eric
From senseamp at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 20:48:56 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Wed Jan  2 20:49:06 2008
Subject: [G4] Apple Hardware Test Images.
In-Reply-To: <258740.26885.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <816382.7789.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

While checking out my "new to me" G4 1GHz Xserve I
came across the source of Apple Hardware Test Disk
Images.

These could be very useful for those of us who pick up
old equipment, without all the extras that came with
them :-).

My Xserve passed I'm glad to say.

Get them here:

http://www.info.apple.com/support/aht.html

Cheers,
John


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
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From fusekigames at briandeuel.com  Sat Jan  5 19:37:22 2008
From: fusekigames at briandeuel.com (Brian Deuel)
Date: Sat Jan  5 19:37:35 2008
Subject: [G4] Memory specifications for Pmac G4 Gigabit Ethernet
In-Reply-To: <816382.7789.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <816382.7789.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1199590642.20240.1229682371@webmail.messagingengine.com>

When I picked up both of my DP500 G4 Gigabit Ethernet machines, both
each had 1gb of PC100 memory, in four 256meg sticks. I'm looking to pick
up a couple of 512meg sticks to bring my Sonnet upgraded 1.8ghz machine
up to 1.5 gigs, but I'm not sure what to look for, specs-wise. I checked
out Otherworld Computing's prices, and $50 per stick seems a little high
for me.

So my question is, has anyone brought any memory at a decent price that
matches the specs that Otherworld sells, but at a more reasonable price?
And if so, what exactly did you buy? Also, what kind of specs should I
look for (cl2, how many chips, registered/unregistered, ECC/non-ECC,
etc)?

I know this seems cheap of me, but with other memory going for extremely
cheap prices, why would these sticks go for $50 and up? Scarcity and
demand? It just seems ridiculous to me when the same memory sold for
less just a couple of years ago.


----
Brian Deuel
BrianDeuelDotCom
http://www.briandeuel.com

Powermac G4 Gigabit Ethernet "Mystic"
1.8 Ghz Sonnet Processor
1 gig RAM
Geforce 6200 256meg Video

From g4-lisz at tonarchiv.ch  Sun Jan  6 05:03:40 2008
From: g4-lisz at tonarchiv.ch (Till Wimmer)
Date: Sun Jan  6 05:03:56 2008
Subject: [G4] Memory specifications for Pmac G4 Gigabit Ethernet
In-Reply-To: <1199590642.20240.1229682371@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <816382.7789.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1199590642.20240.1229682371@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <4780D1AC.4020903@tonarchiv.ch>

Brian,

unbuffered, non-ECC 100MHz CL2 or CL3 should work - 64Mx64 architecture
is needed (8 chips on each side).

-- Till

Brian Deuel wrote:
> When I picked up both of my DP500 G4 Gigabit Ethernet machines, both
> each had 1gb of PC100 memory, in four 256meg sticks. I'm looking to pick
> up a couple of 512meg sticks to bring my Sonnet upgraded 1.8ghz machine
> up to 1.5 gigs, but I'm not sure what to look for, specs-wise. I checked
> out Otherworld Computing's prices, and $50 per stick seems a little high
> for me.
>
> So my question is, has anyone brought any memory at a decent price that
> matches the specs that Otherworld sells, but at a more reasonable price?
> And if so, what exactly did you buy? Also, what kind of specs should I
> look for (cl2, how many chips, registered/unregistered, ECC/non-ECC,
> etc)?
>
> I know this seems cheap of me, but with other memory going for extremely
> cheap prices, why would these sticks go for $50 and up? Scarcity and
> demand? It just seems ridiculous to me when the same memory sold for
> less just a couple of years ago.
>
>
> ----
> Brian Deuel
> BrianDeuelDotCom
> http://www.briandeuel.com
>
> Powermac G4 Gigabit Ethernet "Mystic"
> 1.8 Ghz Sonnet Processor
> 1 gig RAM
> Geforce 6200 256meg Video
>
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
>   

From walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 08:04:22 2008
From: walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com (Kevin Walsh)
Date: Sun Jan  6 08:04:41 2008
Subject: [G4] Need advice for a fixer-upper
Message-ID: <229109.32833.qm@web37509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Howdy folks,

This past summer, I acquired a G4 tower from a windows
junkie.  He gave it to me free of cost, he just wasn't
fond of it.  I appreciate that someone of his
persuasion was so enlightened to give Mac a shot but
can see why he was so turned off.  The ATA drive is
only 10 GB and there was only 512 MB of ram.  I've
been stepping up the memory, currently at 896 MB, and
have been supplementing the lack of hard drive space
with an external firewire drive.  I'm about to tack
the major necessary steps to enhance the computer's
performance and would like some feedback for any of
you experts.  Below are the upgrades I'm looking into
and i would like to know "could I", "should I", and if
so "how do I" on each issue.  First the specs: Power
Mac G4, AGP Graphics (Sawtooth, I think) / 1 CPU,
type: 2.9, 400 MHz / firmware 4.2.8f1 / AGP: Rage
128Pro / OS X 10.3.9

New internal ATA drive - I think something around 40
gigs is adequate for me.  I'm considering keeping the
10 GB drive in there (why not) but loading the OS on
the new larger drive.

Second Processor - is it possible to add another
rather than replacing it, what could work?

New video card - or is the one in there fine?

OS upgrade - with the proper upgrades, could 10.4 or
even 10.5 be installed?

I appreciate any wisdom y'all might provide.  I'm new
to the list and have already benefited from the
archived discussions.

peace, Kevin


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
From macsys at mac.com  Sun Jan  6 09:09:07 2008
From: macsys at mac.com (wilkinw)
Date: Sun Jan  6 09:09:22 2008
Subject: [G4] Need advice for a fixer-upper
In-Reply-To: <229109.32833.qm@web37509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <229109.32833.qm@web37509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0AAC7617-1505-4212-B872-DD8A535DFC2D@mac.com>

Just my personal opinion, I know you got it for free but you could  
probably pick up a G5 or even a dual mirror G4 for about the same  
money that you will be putting into the G4, Wayne.

On Jan 6, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Kevin Walsh wrote:

> Howdy folks,
>
> This past summer, I acquired a G4 tower from a windows
> junkie.  He gave it to me free of cost, he just wasn't
> fond of it.  I appreciate that someone of his
> persuasion was so enlightened to give Mac a shot but
> can see why he was so turned off.  The ATA drive is
> only 10 GB and there was only 512 MB of ram.  I've
> been stepping up the memory, currently at 896 MB, and
> have been supplementing the lack of hard drive space
> with an external firewire drive.  I'm about to tack
> the major necessary steps to enhance the computer's
> performance and would like some feedback for any of
> you experts.  Below are the upgrades I'm looking into
> and i would like to know "could I", "should I", and if
> so "how do I" on each issue.  First the specs: Power
> Mac G4, AGP Graphics (Sawtooth, I think) / 1 CPU,
> type: 2.9, 400 MHz / firmware 4.2.8f1 / AGP: Rage
> 128Pro / OS X 10.3.9
>
> New internal ATA drive - I think something around 40
> gigs is adequate for me.  I'm considering keeping the
> 10 GB drive in there (why not) but loading the OS on
> the new larger drive.
>
> Second Processor - is it possible to add another
> rather than replacing it, what could work?
>
> New video card - or is the one in there fine?
>
> OS upgrade - with the proper upgrades, could 10.4 or
> even 10.5 be installed?
>
> I appreciate any wisdom y'all might provide.  I'm new
> to the list and have already benefited from the
> archived discussions.
>
> peace, Kevin
>
>
>       
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From alpoulin at cox.net  Sun Jan  6 09:12:19 2008
From: alpoulin at cox.net (Al Poulin)
Date: Sun Jan  6 09:13:21 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Need advice for a fixer-upper 
In-Reply-To: <20080106160436.D0C2B4F5C7A@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080106160436.D0C2B4F5C7A@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <f6b9f4583e6f555b5d8379d37e7f5719@cox.net>

Kevin:

You are asking all the right questions and you can have a lot of fun, 
like in finding a new hobby to play with.  But before spending any 
money, please take a look at the specs and cost of a brand new Apple 
Mac-Mini, or even a refurbished one, or a used one.  To upgrade your 
tower, you can easily spend close to the cost of a new Mini.  You might 
want to set a dollar limit, say something like $200 or $300 for 
software and hardware.  For general info, look at

http://www.lowendmac.com/index.shtml
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
http://www.everymac.com/
http://macsales.com/  also known as OWC

My thoughts to your specific questions below.

On Jan 6, 2008, at 11:04 AM, g4-request@listserver.themacintoshguy.com 
wrote:

>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:04:22 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kevin Walsh <walsh_kevin_t@yahoo.com>

> This past summer, I acquired a G4 tower from a windows
> junkie.

>   The ATA drive is
> only 10 GB and there was only 512 MB of ram.  I've
> been stepping up the memory, currently at 896 MB,

Good for 10.4.  For 10.5, better to have at least 1 GB.  $50 - $100.
> and
> have been supplementing the lack of hard drive space
> with an external firewire drive.  I'm about to tack
> the major necessary steps to enhance the computer's
> performance and would like some feedback for any of
> you experts.  Below are the upgrades I'm looking into
> and i would like to know "could I", "should I", and if
> so "how do I" on each issue.  First the specs: Power
> Mac G4, AGP Graphics (Sawtooth, I think) / 1 CPU,
> type: 2.9, 400 MHz / firmware 4.2.8f1 / AGP: Rage
> 128Pro / OS X 10.3.9
>
> New internal ATA drive - I think something around 40
> gigs is adequate for me.  I'm considering keeping the
> 10 GB drive in there (why not) but loading the OS on
> the new larger drive.

Any new drive is likely to give you more.  $70?  But if you say that 40 
GB is enough, that suggests you do not have a lot of video or music 
processing to do, which further suggests that running 10.4 might be a 
reasonable target.  Why go for 10.5 on this old machine?
>
> Second Processor - is it possible to add another
> rather than replacing it, what could work?

Second processor will not go on the existing motherboard.  Replacing 
processor has options.  Look at various vendors, including OWC.  Maybe 
$100 - $200.
>
> New video card - or is the one in there fine?

There are a couple features in OS 10.4 and 10.5 which will not work 
with the old card.  But not critical for most people.
>
> OS upgrade - with the proper upgrades, could 10.4 or
> even 10.5 be installed?

10.4 will be happy.  I don't know if you can bump that machine up to 
the minimum requirements for 10.5.  With a hack or two, you can run 
10.5 below Apple's "minimum requirements."  Oh, Another $50 or $80 here 
too.

Al Poulin


From senseamp at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 09:35:52 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Sun Jan  6 09:36:03 2008
Subject: [G4] Need advice for a fixer-upper
In-Reply-To: <229109.32833.qm@web37509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <734789.20674.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Firstly, you have to realize that this is ~7 year old
technology. It doesn't compare to modern PC's. If you
want a modern, no problems computer buy a current Mac.
It is, however, a great way to get into OSX all the
way up to Tiger (10.4), and will run many productivity
and entertainment tasks well.

How much too spend and on what parts depends on what
you want to do, but...

IMO the best upgrade is a new harddrive. The original
is now rather old and can easily be replaced (toss it
out). The internal built interface is limited to
ATA/66 and 128Gb. But that's not bad! You can buy a
brand new PATA 160Gb, 7200rpm, 8Mb cache drive for
less than $70. You will only be able to format 128Gb
of it but who cares? You can reuse the disk in a
latter upgrade if you want.

Install a DVD burner, or a CD burner/DVD rom. That
allows you to play movies and burn CD's in iTunes.
Look for advice on compatible models. Otherwise get an
external DVD burner with a firewire interface, you can
use it everywhere!

Next buy a retail copy of Tiger. Panther is fine but
Tiger is better/faster and you can reuse it if you
upgrade to a more modern Mac. The amount of ram you
have is OK, more is better, I use 1Gb.

I love the dual monitor experience :-) Easy on a Mac.
You can get a fancy dual monitor card, or go the LEM
route and pick up a 128 rage PCI card from a B&W and
just add that. I have two 17" Sharp LCD (in white)
that match my white Mac keyboard. You can pick up 17"
LCD's second hand very cheaply as others go for bigger
upgrades. Matching models is not necessary but Kool!
Again these can be re-used in latter up-grades.

Download open-office for free. Make sure you have X11
installed (it's optional).

Do you need wireless? Get an original Airport card.
Not the fastest, but they work well. Wired is always
faster though.

Lastly look for a dual 450 or 500 Apple processor. You
can only go to a dual processor if your mother board
can handle it. OSX can really use two processors
(unlike OS 9).

Mostly what I recommend is about the user experience,
which is what LEM Macs are all about.

Good luck,

John 

--- Kevin Walsh <walsh_kevin_t@yahoo.com> wrote:
> First the specs: Power
> Mac G4, AGP Graphics (Sawtooth, I think) / 1 CPU,
> type: 2.9, 400 MHz / firmware 4.2.8f1 / AGP: Rage
> 128Pro / OS X 10.3.9



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From ewood at izoom.net  Sun Jan  6 12:54:39 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Sun Jan  6 12:54:55 2008
Subject: [G4] Need advice for a fixer-upper
In-Reply-To: <734789.20674.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <734789.20674.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9A54286-09E5-4C54-B692-702B80C43AC0@izoom.net>


Am Jan 6, 2008 um 11:35 AM schrieb John Niven:

> ...
> Download open-office for free. Make sure you have X11
> installed (it's optional).
>
> Do you need wireless? Get an original Airport card.
> Not the fastest, but they work well. Wired is always
> faster though.
>
> Lastly look for a dual 450 or 500 Apple processor. You
> can only go to a dual processor if your mother board
> can handle it. OSX can really use two processors
> (unlike OS 9).
>
> Mostly what I recommend is about the user experience,
> which is what LEM Macs are all about.
>
> Good luck,
>
> John

Or there's Neo Office, also free and does not need X11.

And lookint at macsales.com, that system can accept a dual CPU  
upgrade just like my own 1.6 GHz dual CPU upgrade. If you want that  
old Mac to become modern, I recommend that and a graphics card of at  
least Radeon 9600-9800 quality. I'm not sure what's available from  
nVidia, but they seem much less supportive of Mac than ATI.

With those upgrades and my RAM maxed out at 1.5 GB, this system plays  
World of Warcraft really well. It doesn't have the recommended DDR  
RAM, but still books. Naturally, more ordinary tasks like video  
encoding and what-not are a breeze. I also installed a Samsung DVD/CD  
burner that's been great. I had an LG drive before that that had  
problems with the drive sleep function in Tiger, so that's why I  
mention Samsung by name.

Eric
From mos125 at comcast.net  Tue Jan  8 07:44:32 2008
From: mos125 at comcast.net (Thomas Brooks)
Date: Tue Jan  8 07:44:41 2008
Subject: [G4] USB 2 Communications Problem
Message-ID: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>



Brand new iMage Webcam installed 1/4/08 on 1.2 GHz PowerPC G4 with  
1.75 GB Ram.

Frame rate about 3 per minute, pictures but not video more like a  
series of camera shots. Have high speed cable modem with Comcast. Have  
separate USB 2.0 PCI card installed

Tried running Running iMage Tester their own software and all checks  
OK. Same thing happens with Yahoo Messenger and iChat.

Also loaded maccam driver and got error message <USB 2 Communications  
Problem>.

In all software my USB 2 is recognized and I can also run Plextor  
PX-708UF2 external DVD and Firewire/USB 2 250GB external Hard Drive.

I have disconnected everything on USB except Macally ICEKey Keyboard,  
Orbit Optical TrackBall and Bluetooth all of which are on a different  
USB 1  card.

On occasion if I try to hot plug the camera it cannot be recognized  
unless I restart the G4.

The iMage support, of course, thinks it is my problem and has offered  
no help other than to check firmware( I have latest) and suggest I  
disconnect USB peripherals.


Any suggestions on how to look for other hardware conflicts or how to  
trouble shoot the USB 2 card and connections? Everything shows  
correctly on About This Mac.

Thanks!

Tom Brooks

I have atttached the log

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From ewood at izoom.net  Tue Jan  8 12:23:44 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Tue Jan  8 12:23:55 2008
Subject: [G4] USB 2 Communications Problem
In-Reply-To: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>
References: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <29BE1F1E-5EBD-4B71-9037-046DCA2C8C7C@izoom.net>

Am Jan 8, 2008 um 9:44 AM schrieb Thomas Brooks:

>
>
> Brand new iMage Webcam installed 1/4/08 on 1.2 GHz PowerPC G4 with  
> 1.75 GB Ram.
>
> Frame rate about 3 per minute, pictures but not video more like a  
> series of camera shots. Have high speed cable modem with Comcast.  
> Have separate USB 2.0 PCI card installed
>
> Tried running Running iMage Tester their own software and all  
> checks OK. Same thing happens with Yahoo Messenger and iChat.
>
> Also loaded maccam driver and got error message <USB 2  
> Communications Problem>.
>
> In all software my USB 2 is recognized and I can also run Plextor  
> PX-708UF2 external DVD and Firewire/USB 2 250GB external Hard Drive.
>
> I have disconnected everything on USB except Macally ICEKey  
> Keyboard, Orbit Optical TrackBall and Bluetooth all of which are on  
> a different USB 1  card.
>
> On occasion if I try to hot plug the camera it cannot be recognized  
> unless I restart the G4.
>
> The iMage support, of course, thinks it is my problem and has  
> offered no help other than to check firmware( I have latest) and  
> suggest I disconnect USB peripherals.
>
>
> Any suggestions on how to look for other hardware conflicts or how  
> to trouble shoot the USB 2 card and connections? Everything shows  
> correctly on About This Mac.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom Brooks
>
That bit about it not being detected if hotplugged is sure odd. Don't  
know if that indicates a hardware incompatibility.

I wonder if it's only operating at a lower speed than USB 2. I saw  
the USB busses looking rather mixed up, with two total high speed  
mixed with regular. Why did it list them in such an order, and not  
together? I'd say make sure only high-speed devices are on the USB 2  
card if you haven't done that and then see what happens. If nothing  
else, maybe try a different card. I have a similar configuration to  
yours, a Power Mac G4 with a USB 2 card, and I'm pretty sure speed is  
decent, though I can only test it with a digital camera and a flash  
drive, and I have no idea based on that whether it's operating at  
full speed. Seems fast though.

Eric
From mos125 at comcast.net  Tue Jan  8 13:24:30 2008
From: mos125 at comcast.net (Thomas Brooks)
Date: Tue Jan  8 13:24:50 2008
Subject: [G4] USB 2 Communications Problem
In-Reply-To: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>
References: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7702BDA3-376F-4E05-BEED-5135FBF34337@comcast.net>

PLEASE DISREGARD THE ORIGINAL!

I don't even know how to explain what the problem was--probably best  
described as <Cockpit Trouble> and let it go at that.

Thanks!

Tom Brooks

###
On Jan 8, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Thomas Brooks wrote:

>
>
> Brand new iMage Webcam installed 1/4/08 on 1.2 GHz PowerPC G4 with  
> 1.75 GB Ram.
>
> Frame rate about 3 per minute, pictures but not video more like a  
> series of camera shots. Have high speed cable modem with Comcast.  
> Have separate USB 2.0 PCI card installed
>
> Tried running Running iMage Tester their own software and all checks  
> OK. Same thing happens with Yahoo Messenger and iChat.
>
> Also loaded maccam driver and got error message <USB 2  
> Communications Problem>.
>
> In all software my USB 2 is recognized and I can also run Plextor  
> PX-708UF2 external DVD and Firewire/USB 2 250GB external Hard Drive.
>
> I have disconnected everything on USB except Macally ICEKey  
> Keyboard, Orbit Optical TrackBall and Bluetooth all of which are on  
> a different USB 1  card.
>
> On occasion if I try to hot plug the camera it cannot be recognized  
> unless I restart the G4.
>
> The iMage support, of course, thinks it is my problem and has  
> offered no help other than to check firmware( I have latest) and  
> suggest I disconnect USB peripherals.
>
>
> Any suggestions on how to look for other hardware conflicts or how  
> to trouble shoot the USB 2 card and connections? Everything shows  
> correctly on About This Mac.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom Brooks
>
> I have atttached the log
>
> <iMage Tester 2008-01-06 at 21.16.24.log>
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From mos125 at comcast.net  Tue Jan  8 13:40:18 2008
From: mos125 at comcast.net (Thomas Brooks)
Date: Tue Jan  8 13:40:59 2008
Subject: [G4] USB 2 Communications Problem
In-Reply-To: <29BE1F1E-5EBD-4B71-9037-046DCA2C8C7C@izoom.net>
References: <12F20376-F320-4CA6-BC82-C109085989BB@comcast.net>
	<29BE1F1E-5EBD-4B71-9037-046DCA2C8C7C@izoom.net>
Message-ID: <E6A03A0C-4516-4711-99FD-7A3F078910F7@comcast.net>

Eric:

Thanks! You are exactly right. I could not even tell which busses were  
high-speed and which USB 1.0 without putting the device on each one of  
them. Profiler   shows  2 high speed USB busses. Each represents a  
different PCI card but the camera will only work on one of them.

Thanks anyway.

TB

###
On Jan 8, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Eric Wood wrote:

> Am Jan 8, 2008 um 9:44 AM schrieb Thomas Brooks:
>
>>
>>
>> Brand new iMage Webcam installed 1/4/08 on 1.2 GHz PowerPC G4 with  
>> 1.75 GB Ram.
>>
>> Frame rate about 3 per minute, pictures but not video more like a  
>> series of camera shots. Have high speed cable modem with Comcast.  
>> Have separate USB 2.0 PCI card installed
>>
>> Tried running Running iMage Tester their own software and all  
>> checks OK. Same thing happens with Yahoo Messenger and iChat.
>>
>> Also loaded maccam driver and got error message <USB 2  
>> Communications Problem>.
>>
>> In all software my USB 2 is recognized and I can also run Plextor  
>> PX-708UF2 external DVD and Firewire/USB 2 250GB external Hard Drive.
>>
>> I have disconnected everything on USB except Macally ICEKey  
>> Keyboard, Orbit Optical TrackBall and Bluetooth all of which are on  
>> a different USB 1  card.
>>
>> On occasion if I try to hot plug the camera it cannot be recognized  
>> unless I restart the G4.
>>
>> The iMage support, of course, thinks it is my problem and has  
>> offered no help other than to check firmware( I have latest) and  
>> suggest I disconnect USB peripherals.
>>
>>
>> Any suggestions on how to look for other hardware conflicts or how  
>> to trouble shoot the USB 2 card and connections? Everything shows  
>> correctly on About This Mac.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Tom Brooks
>>
> That bit about it not being detected if hotplugged is sure odd.  
> Don't know if that indicates a hardware incompatibility.
>
> I wonder if it's only operating at a lower speed than USB 2. I saw  
> the USB busses looking rather mixed up, with two total high speed  
> mixed with regular. Why did it list them in such an order, and not  
> together? I'd say make sure only high-speed devices are on the USB 2  
> card if you haven't done that and then see what happens. If nothing  
> else, maybe try a different card. I have a similar configuration to  
> yours, a Power Mac G4 with a USB 2 card, and I'm pretty sure speed  
> is decent, though I can only test it with a digital camera and a  
> flash drive, and I have no idea based on that whether it's operating  
> at full speed. Seems fast though.
>
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 15:40:13 2008
From: walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com (Kevin Walsh)
Date: Tue Jan  8 15:40:24 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Re: Need advice for a fixer-upper
In-Reply-To: <20080108212447.04B9B593FCA@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <944043.217.qm@web37511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Addressing all replies,

Damn, you guys are awesome - I'm going to enjoy
hangin' around.  Thanks for all the insight.  Allow me
to give some history of use of this beast I'm
rebuilding.  It works great as is - for mundane
computing -  but lags in the few exotic fulfillments I
require (i.e. SimCity 4 and Adobe's Creative Suite)...
but those programs still
work...s...l...o...w...l...y....  I was raised with
Apple and will never turn my back on these machines. 
I also spent 5 years or so using OS 9 after OS X 10.0
was released because I didn't need the upgrade - and
as many of us recall, the original OS X was awful.  So
My skepticism took over. I appreciate the advice to
buy a newer Mac - but I will hang tight with my
freebie, at least until the last of my student loans
clear.  I expect to use 10.4 in the next year and love
it to death by the time the Aztecs predicted the end,
or maybe even until Obama is voted in for a second
term.

Honestly, I've joined several Mac groups over the
years, and none have been so helpful as this one. 
Look forward to contributing to the insanity.

Cheers, Kevin


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
From crowesnest at aapt.net.au  Tue Jan  8 15:47:57 2008
From: crowesnest at aapt.net.au (Pat Crowe)
Date: Tue Jan  8 15:46:58 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
Message-ID: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>

I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I  
put it to sleep.
The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to just  
leave it run?
PatC.

From obgraph at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan  8 16:16:42 2008
From: obgraph at hiwaay.net (O'Brien)
Date: Tue Jan  8 16:16:53 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
References: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
Message-ID: <20080108181642.725549.289ab4e4@hiwaay.net>

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:17:57 +1030, Pat Crowe wrote:
> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I 
put it to sleep.
The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to 
just leave it run?

Ha....the eternal question. I manually sleep my Mac if I know I'm not going to be using it for two or three hours. Otherwise, I have the monitors to sleep after 15 minutes.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

O'Brien
From wolfiebear at coldreams.com  Tue Jan  8 19:08:03 2008
From: wolfiebear at coldreams.com (Ingrid Mager)
Date: Tue Jan  8 19:08:19 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080108181642.725549.289ab4e4@hiwaay.net>
References: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
	<20080108181642.725549.289ab4e4@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <36B37A3E-6BCA-424D-91A4-6E830E7DA200@coldreams.com>

I sleep my compiuter a lot, like over night when I am in the middle  
of a lot of online research..., and I run it overnight a lot trying  
to make downloads (only have dial-up available out here <gasp>)

Well, the only thing I have to share is that the computer bogs down a  
lot when I have had it running too long...cache stuff, I suspect.  
Anyway, when I reboot, then everything goes back to normal and runs  
spiffy again. So that isn't exactly the answer to your question, but  
I just wanted to share my personal experience...has nothign to really  
do with what is better form the computer itself.

~Inga



On Jan 8, 2008, at 4:16 PM, O'Brien wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:17:57 +1030, Pat Crowe wrote:
>> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I
> put it to sleep.
> The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to
> just leave it run?
>
> Ha....the eternal question. I manually sleep my Mac if I know I'm  
> not going to be using it for two or three hours. Otherwise, I have  
> the monitors to sleep after 15 minutes.
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> O'Brien
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
>

From g4-lisz at tonarchiv.ch  Wed Jan  9 07:19:55 2008
From: g4-lisz at tonarchiv.ch (Till Wimmer)
Date: Wed Jan  9 07:11:24 2008
Subject: [G4] Volunteers for testing wanted - G4 Digital Audio and 800DP
Message-ID: <4784E61B.9000103@tonarchiv.ch>

Hello,

some time ago i wrote a kernel extension which enables the level 3 cache 
on unsupported G4/processor card configurations.
One of those (apple-unsupported) configuration is: G4 Digital Audio with 
processor card Dual 800MHz from Quicksilver...

This extension worked for OS X 10.3.xx only.

Now i wrote a similar extension for Tiger (10.4.xx), but i could test it 
on a single processor machine only.

Are there volunteers for testing my new extension with a dual processor 
configuration and L3 cache?

Please write me a mail, then i send you the instrucitons.

Regards,
Till

From ewood at izoom.net  Wed Jan  9 11:30:01 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Wed Jan  9 11:30:14 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
References: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
Message-ID: <6F6F1545-D144-4A59-B5DA-78ADEE8A3DF2@izoom.net>


Am Jan 8, 2008 um 5:47 PM schrieb Pat Crowe:

> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I  
> put it to sleep.
> The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to  
> just leave it run?
> PatC.
>

There is nothing wrong with sleep. It will help preserve your  
hardware, I should think, since some of it, such as hard drives, will  
get a respite. And you'll be conserving power, which is always good.  
That light bulb theory that turning a computer on is somehow  
detrimental is just logical, yet incorrect thinking. Computers aren't  
light bulbs.

Eric
From keith_w at dslextreme.com  Wed Jan  9 11:47:25 2008
From: keith_w at dslextreme.com (Keith Whaley)
Date: Wed Jan  9 11:48:40 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <6F6F1545-D144-4A59-B5DA-78ADEE8A3DF2@izoom.net>
References: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
	<6F6F1545-D144-4A59-B5DA-78ADEE8A3DF2@izoom.net>
Message-ID: <C1402620-7951-4664-A71E-D73A09FA6702@dslextreme.com>


On Jan 9, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Eric Wood wrote:

>
> Am Jan 8, 2008 um 5:47 PM schrieb Pat Crowe:
>
>> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I  
>> put it to sleep.
>> The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to  
>> just leave it run?
>> PatC.
>>
>
> There is nothing wrong with sleep. It will help preserve your  
> hardware, I should think, since some of it, such as hard drives,  
> will get a respite. And you'll be conserving power, which is always  
> good. That light bulb theory that turning a computer on is somehow  
> detrimental is just logical, yet incorrect thinking. Computers  
> aren't light bulbs.
>
> Eric

However, if you don't mind my interruption, any electronic components  
that draw power heat up and expand when turned on, and cool down and  
contract when shut off.

I guess it's entirely possible today's far more sophisticated  
manufacturing engineering designers have provided comfortably for  
that heat/cool cycle life. Many of 'yesterday's' components didn't  
cycle all that well...

keith whaley
From ewood at izoom.net  Wed Jan  9 11:52:35 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Wed Jan  9 11:52:43 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <C1402620-7951-4664-A71E-D73A09FA6702@dslextreme.com>
References: <ED97E82A-2CB0-4910-8D8D-51E550A2D82D@aapt.net.au>
	<6F6F1545-D144-4A59-B5DA-78ADEE8A3DF2@izoom.net>
	<C1402620-7951-4664-A71E-D73A09FA6702@dslextreme.com>
Message-ID: <FF26652C-CB1A-4FE1-B150-6ECF305CDCC9@izoom.net>


Am Jan 9, 2008 um 1:47 PM schrieb Keith Whaley:

>
> On Jan 9, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Eric Wood wrote:
>
>>
>> Am Jan 8, 2008 um 5:47 PM schrieb Pat Crowe:
>>
>>> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times  
>>> I put it to sleep.
>>> The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to  
>>> just leave it run?
>>> PatC.
>>>
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with sleep. It will help preserve your  
>> hardware, I should think, since some of it, such as hard drives,  
>> will get a respite. And you'll be conserving power, which is  
>> always good. That light bulb theory that turning a computer on is  
>> somehow detrimental is just logical, yet incorrect thinking.  
>> Computers aren't light bulbs.
>>
>> Eric
>
> However, if you don't mind my interruption, any electronic  
> components that draw power heat up and expand when turned on, and  
> cool down and contract when shut off.
>
> I guess it's entirely possible today's far more sophisticated  
> manufacturing engineering designers have provided comfortably for  
> that heat/cool cycle life. Many of 'yesterday's' components didn't  
> cycle all that well...
>
> keith whaley
>
My thought for hard drives is that they have moving parts, and the  
more they move, the sooner they will wear out. They're rated for so  
many hours of actual operation, so it seems to me that while a drive  
sleeps, it is being preserved.

Eric
From leestate at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jan  9 12:25:20 2008
From: leestate at sbcglobal.net (leestate@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed Jan  9 12:25:35 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <FF26652C-CB1A-4FE1-B150-6ECF305CDCC9@izoom.net>
Message-ID: <917090.66516.qm@web82209.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I seem to remember a "word" from "Apple" a few
years ago,, to the effect that hard drives "wear"
most, in the sense of becoming more liable to
failure, in the surging of power, mostly, from a
cold start, next, from a restart, last (but not
least), waking from sleep. 

Accordingly, "Apple" recommended to be
"witholding" about putting to sleep - (so as to
avoid myriad "wake-ups), and not even to shut
down unless eight hours (or so) defined the
period before restart.


For what it's worth, with four drives, (two in a
type raid array, two ATA additional drives, in a
vintage (2001) G4 DP500 Dual, Gigabit Ethernet,
(Tiger), I put this machine to sleep literally
"at will", whenever I'm going to leave it for,
say, an hour or more...and have been doing this
several times a day, since...September of...2001!
( I hate to hear "everything 'spinning'", all the
"whoosh!)

Of course...I know...I've been exceedingly
fortunate with this machine, (my favorite amongst
another of same vintage, and a fairly new G5
(2.3).

Steve L


--- Eric Wood <ewood@izoom.net> wrote:

> 
> Am Jan 9, 2008 um 1:47 PM schrieb Keith Whaley:
> 
> >
> > On Jan 9, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Eric Wood wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Am Jan 8, 2008 um 5:47 PM schrieb Pat Crowe:
> >>
> >>> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the
> day and between times  
> >>> I put it to sleep.
> >>> The question is, would it be more
> beneficial to the computer to  
> >>> just leave it run?
> >>> PatC.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There is nothing wrong with sleep. It will
> help preserve your  
> >> hardware, I should think, since some of it,
> such as hard drives,  
> >> will get a respite. And you'll be conserving
> power, which is  
> >> always good. That light bulb theory that
> turning a computer on is  
> >> somehow detrimental is just logical, yet
> incorrect thinking.  
> >> Computers aren't light bulbs.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >
> > However, if you don't mind my interruption,
> any electronic  
> > components that draw power heat up and expand
> when turned on, and  
> > cool down and contract when shut off.
> >
> > I guess it's entirely possible today's far
> more sophisticated  
> > manufacturing engineering designers have
> provided comfortably for  
> > that heat/cool cycle life. Many of
> 'yesterday's' components didn't  
> > cycle all that well...
> >
> > keith whaley
> >
> My thought for hard drives is that they have
> moving parts, and the  
> more they move, the sooner they will wear out.
> They're rated for so  
> many hours of actual operation, so it seems to
> me that while a drive  
> sleeps, it is being preserved.
> 
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 

From cdt at globaldsl.net  Wed Jan  9 12:53:11 2008
From: cdt at globaldsl.net (C D T)
Date: Wed Jan  9 12:53:22 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <917090.66516.qm@web82209.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <917090.66516.qm@web82209.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b9b13f0643fe520b97514c6aceeb166d@globaldsl.net>

On our 2002 QS dual 1gig we have 5 hard drives - 2 ATA, 3 SCSI, two 
digital monitors - a17" apple studio & a 19" viewsonic, and we sleep it 
using the Apple monitor any time we leave it for more than the 15 
minutes in which it will sleep automatically.  That's the setup the man 
who bought the computer new used and he said he had no problems with 
it.  He sold it to us because he was upgrading to an intel mac.  Just 
my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Dan


On Jan 9, 2008, at 3:25 PM, leestate@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> I seem to remember a "word" from "Apple" a few
> years ago,, to the effect that hard drives "wear"
> most, in the sense of becoming more liable to
> failure, in the surging of power, mostly, from a
> cold start, next, from a restart, last (but not
> least), waking from sleep.
>
> Accordingly, "Apple" recommended to be
> "witholding" about putting to sleep - (so as to
> avoid myriad "wake-ups), and not even to shut
> down unless eight hours (or so) defined the
> period before restart.
>
>
> For what it's worth, with four drives, (two in a
> type raid array, two ATA additional drives, in a
> vintage (2001) G4 DP500 Dual, Gigabit Ethernet,
> (Tiger), I put this machine to sleep literally
> "at will", whenever I'm going to leave it for,
> say, an hour or more...and have been doing this
> several times a day, since...September of...2001!
> ( I hate to hear "everything 'spinning'", all the
> "whoosh!)
>
> Of course...I know...I've been exceedingly
> fortunate with this machine, (my favorite amongst
> another of same vintage, and a fairly new G5
> (2.3).
>
> Steve L
>
>>>> Am Jan 8, 2008 um 5:47 PM schrieb Pat Crowe:
>>>>
>>>>> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the
>> day and between times
>>>>> I put it to sleep.
>>>>> The question is, would it be more
>> beneficial to the computer to
>>>>> just leave it run?
>>>>> PatC.
>>>>>

From baltwo at san.rr.com  Wed Jan  9 13:01:13 2008
From: baltwo at san.rr.com (John Baltutis)
Date: Wed Jan  9 13:01:30 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080109202534.870B25D381F@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080109202534.870B25D381F@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <f05210600c3aae55815aa@[192.168.1.100]>

On 01/09/08, Pat Crowe <crowesnest@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>
> I visit my G4QS 2002 many times during the day and between times I
> put it to sleep.
> The question is, would it be more beneficial to the computer to just
> leave it run?

I've been running my G4, 450 MP (seven years old) basically 24/7 and have never
slept it or its HDs. I only sleep the display. No noticable increase in my
electric bill or any problems with HD failures. Sleeping anything directly
connected to the power outlet (mains), besides the display, is an overblown
procedure. As for combatting global warming: as Lomborg says, warmer is better
than colder.
From peter at birrendesign.com  Wed Jan  9 13:13:00 2008
From: peter at birrendesign.com (Peter Birren)
Date: Wed Jan  9 13:13:11 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <f05210600c3aae55815aa@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <20080109202534.870B25D381F@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<f05210600c3aae55815aa@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <80F0D3EE-AA09-450D-BD3E-84DBD1F6C5F5@birrendesign.com>

> On 01/09/08, Pat Crowe <crowesnest@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> would it be more beneficial to the computer to just leave it run?


I have a DP450 G4/GE (10.4.10) since it was brand new and invariably  
have to restart some programs, or the entire machine, when it wakes  
from sleep. So I've gotten to only sleeping the monitor after a half- 
hour of an astronomy photos screensaver. Leaving the drives running  
appears to create no problems. I shut down every night, too, starting  
fresh in the morning. I replaced the main hard drive last year only  
to go from 30 to 100 gig; the other two drives - client files,  
photos, video - only wake when they're needed.

- Peter


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From senseamp at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 14:38:33 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Wed Jan  9 14:38:41 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <C1402620-7951-4664-A71E-D73A09FA6702@dslextreme.com>
Message-ID: <855921.23804.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I've spent 29 years in the semiconductor industry and
have qualified many product after various "stress"
tests.

No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off" test
:-)

We do however perform accelerated life tests at above
normal Voltages and temperatures. I have to tell you
that semiconductors DO wear out with continuous usage.


That typically only happens after extended periods,
much beyond the useful life of even a LEM Mac!

The bad news is as devices shrink, the wearout problem
is becoming more acute. Hopefully if I do my job
right, nobody will notice but, what will always be
true is that with no power there is no wearout.

We do also perform temperature cycling tests. No power
is applied but the devices are cycled repeatedly
between -40C and +125C looking for weaknesses in the
packaging. You will not see anything like these
extremes in a home computer.

I know less about spinning mechanical things, except
when I have to take my car to the garage. I think they
don't wear out when they are not moving.

If you want to have a computer for a really long time
you should learn from the makers of high-availability
servers. They have RAID arrays and redundant power
supplies. So regular backups, and a second hard drive 
(you can use OSX's RAID1 mirror format easily) are the
prescription. And a spare power supply if one comes to
hand.

I believe that one should shutdown or sleep a computer
as much as is practical. It saves power, and wearout.
While I may enjoy the warmer weather global warming
brings, it's spoiled by the water flowing in under my
door!

Cheers, John
 
--- Keith Whaley <keith_w@dslextreme.com> wrote:
 
> However, if you don't mind my interruption, any
> electronic components  
> that draw power heat up and expand when turned on,
> and cool down and  
> contract when shut off.
> 
> I guess it's entirely possible today's far more
> sophisticated  
> manufacturing engineering designers have provided
> comfortably for  
> that heat/cool cycle life. Many of 'yesterday's'
> components didn't  
> cycle all that well...


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From g4 at salemoregon.com  Wed Jan  9 14:57:16 2008
From: g4 at salemoregon.com (jonny)
Date: Wed Jan  9 14:58:12 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <855921.23804.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <855921.23804.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080bc3aafe3d64fd@[71.237.155.74]>

>I've spent 29 years in the semiconductor industry and
>have qualified many product after various "stress"
>tests.
>
>No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off" test
>:-)
>
>We do however perform accelerated life tests at above
>normal Voltages and temperatures. I have to tell you
>that semiconductors DO wear out with continuous usage.
>

<snip>

Thank you, John <all>...for an interesting & informative thread.

I'm going to begin shutting down when I'm through for the day, and 
sleeping when I'm inactive.  I used to do this ALL the time, then for 
whatever reason, I stopped doing it about a year ago.

Thanks for the reminder to protect my mac AND conserve energy.

jonny

///
From Technophobic_Tom at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 17:35:45 2008
From: Technophobic_Tom at comcast.net (Technophobic_Tom@comcast.net)
Date: Wed Jan  9 17:35:56 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080109202534.3F2A95D381B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080109202534.3F2A95D381B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>

>>...would it be more beneficial to the computer to just leave it run?
>
>There is nothing wrong with sleep.

There are exceptions. The USB2 card in my MDD 1.25 DP puts the 
machine in a coma if I allow the sleep process, i.e., it can't be 
awakened. So I'm limited to sleeping the monitor and HD.
-- 
T.T.
From august.ham at verizon.net  Wed Jan  9 18:01:12 2008
From: august.ham at verizon.net (YOUR FRIEND, CHRIS)
Date: Wed Jan  9 18:01:51 2008
Subject: [G4] RE: SLEEP???????????????
Message-ID: <E18C0C15-1F83-4821-B295-1EF1F5F1DC46@verizon.net>

hi guys -

issue one {as john mcloughlin sez}, and please don't laugh; how do i  
respond to a specific post? i'm using mac mail and  when i clicked on  
"message-ID" to reply, i get a new compose window - but nothing in  
the subject line, so i sent a new submission. please advise!

this subject is timely as i was just going to pose a similar  
question. i am writing this on my g4 450dp gigabit ethernet that i  
purchased new almost eight years ago to the day. still has the  
original bto "large" 40gb hard drive.
for over five years, i always had it set up to go to sleep as much as  
possible, along with the display. {apple studio 17" crt; the clear  
case one. the one i'm using now!}

about three years ago, i started reading more and more that what  
specifically wears out hard drives the most is the initial spinning  
up to speed, whether from sleep or to power up. ever since then i've  
been leaving my machine on virtually 24 hours a day, unless i'll be  
gone for more than 24 hours. {display goes to sleep in 15 minutes  
however}.
i've also encountered opinions stating that the heating and cooling  
cycles of going to and waking from sleep is detrimental to the  
overall computer itself.

now, if you've read any of my past posts {all in the form of  
questions} you KNOW i don't know a damn thing about computers!

but i do know a bit about high end stereo equipment, of which i'm  
fortunate enough to own a few components. when i bought my first  
{solid state} hi end components in 1985, i was advised to leave them  
on ALL the time to protect the internal components of the units from  
premature degradation and or failure due to heating and cooling  
cycles - not to mention obscene repair costs.

SO - for all intents and purposes my power amp, pre amp and tuner  
have NEVER been shut off since their purchase in 1985, unless i was  
leaving for more than 48 hours.

i am listening to them as i write this {lowell fulson!}.
they are still ALL original - not even a second of down time in over  
twenty years!  additionally, i've owned and played with a bunch of  
other high end components over the years and treated them exactly the  
same - without even one failure; unless having my pitbull knock over  
a bottle of porter into the guts of a tuner counts.   ;-)   but that  
wasn't the one i got in 1985 which is still perfect....

suffice to say, tube audio equipment is an entirely different  
situation, but as far as i know, computers haven't had tubes since  
about the year of my birth; 1954.

does anyone have any opinions as to the above experiences as to how  
they apply to computers?

thanks for "listening"

chris in ny
From g4 at salemoregon.com  Wed Jan  9 18:42:56 2008
From: g4 at salemoregon.com (jonny)
Date: Wed Jan  9 18:43:17 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>
References: <20080109202534.3F2A95D381B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <p06240800c3ab35232f20@[71.237.155.74]>

>>>...would it be more beneficial to the computer to just leave it run?
>>
>>There is nothing wrong with sleep.
>
>There are exceptions. The USB2 card in my MDD 1.25 DP puts the 
>machine in a coma if I allow the sleep process, i.e., it can't be 
>awakened. So I'm limited to sleeping the monitor and HD.
>--
>T.T.

That's exactly what happened when I tried it; same machine, with a 
USB2 card.  Wouldn't wake up no matter what I tried.  Messy restart.

I'll try your formula and see how that goes.  Thanks.

jonny

///
From senseamp at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 20:00:02 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Wed Jan  9 20:00:17 2008
Subject: [G4] RE: SLEEP???????????????
In-Reply-To: <E18C0C15-1F83-4821-B295-1EF1F5F1DC46@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <146008.35992.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Chris!

I don't want to alarm you but leaving your computer on
all the time has caused your shift key to
malfunction!!!

:-)

Personally I think you are singlehandedly responsible
for the Global Warming situation.

Next you will be going to 1W single-ended triode amps
with huge bulb-like glowing tubes! Did you put green
felt-pen on the edge of you cd's? Ha!

The ones I fell for where:

1) loudspeaker cables effect the sound.
2) you can hear the difference between turntables.

Both of these (as far as I'm concerned) are true :-)

I still have LP's.

So to get serious, although amplifiers are analogue
circuits, the semiconductors are still made the same
way. They do tend to have huge bulk capacitors which
maybe better left turned on, but I think it's all
hooeey.

I'd advise you to swap out that 40Gb for something
more modern, or at least get an external firewire
drive and makes backups. Use Carbon Copy Cloner.

CRT monitors are big bulbs, they need to be in
standby.
LCD monitors also have a lamp so should be in standby.

As I said before, if you are really into the idea of
keeping you Mac going, consider buying a spare power
supply before they are all gone to the landfill. It's
the part that's most likely to go bad.

John

--- "YOUR FRIEND, CHRIS" <august.ham@verizon.net>
wrote:

> hi guys -
>
> this subject is timely as i was just going to pose a
> similar  
> question. i am writing this on my g4 450dp gigabit
> ethernet that i  
> purchased new almost eight years ago to the day.
> still has the  
> original bto "large" 40gb hard drive.
> for over five years, i always had it set up to go to
> sleep as much as  
> possible, along with the display. {apple studio 17"
> crt; the clear  
> case one. the one i'm using now!}



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
From nagable at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 20:21:10 2008
From: nagable at comcast.net (nagable@comcast.net)
Date: Wed Jan  9 20:21:19 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
Message-ID: <011020080421.17760.47859D36000E4DD70000456022165662760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>

To put a fly in your ointment:

I used a Power Mac 5500 as a server from 1997 to 2005, and 3 G4s from 2000 to 2005. Never shut them down.  They were still going when they were replaced by Dell servers.  I repaired Macs for a school district and rarely had a power supply problem.  They were usually left running in the computer labs.

For what it's worth.

Nate
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: jonny <g4@salemoregon.com>
> >I've spent 29 years in the semiconductor industry and
> >have qualified many product after various "stress"
> >tests.
> >
> >No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off" test
> >:-)
> >
> >We do however perform accelerated life tests at above
> >normal Voltages and temperatures. I have to tell you
> >that semiconductors DO wear out with continuous usage.
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Thank you, John <all>...for an interesting & informative thread.
> 
> I'm going to begin shutting down when I'm through for the day, and 
> sleeping when I'm inactive.  I used to do this ALL the time, then for 
> whatever reason, I stopped doing it about a year ago.
> 
> Thanks for the reminder to protect my mac AND conserve energy.
> 
> jonny

From Technophobic_Tom at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 20:23:51 2008
From: Technophobic_Tom at comcast.net (Technophobic_Tom@comcast.net)
Date: Wed Jan  9 20:24:04 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080110040028.2D2575E5C7B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080110040028.2D2575E5C7B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <p06240803c3ab4df53e04@[192.168.0.100]>

>No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off" test.

Ever notice that you find most failures when you go to turn on 
equipment? "It was working fine when I turned it off."
-- 
T.T.
From skenn at earthlink.net  Wed Jan  9 20:31:25 2008
From: skenn at earthlink.net (S. Kennedy)
Date: Wed Jan  9 20:31:36 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>
References: <20080109202534.3F2A95D381B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <20080109233125186677.94789e8c@earthlink.net>

I have had the same problem when using my usb 2 card on OS 10.3.9.  However, I found that the problem only seems to occur with bus powered devices connected to he usb 2 card.  I have two printers that are self powered and there is no problem with them connected.  I use the built in usb 1 connection for my keyboard and mouse and if I need to use a bus powered device on the usb 2 card I disconnect before sleeping.  A bit of a nuisance but better than a hard shutdown with the startup button on my 1.25 GHz DP MDD.  I haven't seen the problem since upgrading to OS 10.4.11 but I haven't really tested all combinations.

S. Kennedy


On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:35:45 -0500, Technophobic_Tom@comcast.net wrote:
>>> ...would it be more beneficial to the computer to just leave it run?
>> 
>> There is nothing wrong with sleep.
> 
> There are exceptions. The USB2 card in my MDD 1.25 DP puts the 
> machine in a coma if I allow the sleep process, i.e., it can't be 
> awakened. So I'm limited to sleeping the monitor and HD.
> -- 
> T.T.
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 20:57:05 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed Jan  9 20:57:23 2008
Subject: [G4] RE: SLEEP???????????????
In-Reply-To: <E18C0C15-1F83-4821-B295-1EF1F5F1DC46@verizon.net>
References: <E18C0C15-1F83-4821-B295-1EF1F5F1DC46@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4785A5A1.4000200@comcast.net>

YOUR FRIEND, CHRIS wrote:
...
> now, if you've read any of my past posts {all in the form of questions} 
> you KNOW i don't know a damn thing about computers!
> 
> but i do know a bit about high end stereo equipment, of which i'm 
> fortunate enough to own a few components. when i bought my first {solid 
> state} hi end components in 1985, i was advised to leave them on ALL the 
> time to protect the internal components of the units from premature 
> degradation and or failure due to heating and cooling cycles - not to 
> mention obscene repair costs.
> 
> SO - for all intents and purposes my power amp, pre amp and tuner have 
> NEVER been shut off since their purchase in 1985, unless i was leaving 
> for more than 48 hours.
> 
> i am listening to them as i write this {lowell fulson!}.
> they are still ALL original - not even a second of down time in over 
> twenty years!

On the other hand, I'm still using the same stereo equipment I bought
in 1975, and it probably has been turned off and on 10,000 times. :)

Eric
From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Wed Jan  9 21:02:23 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed Jan  9 21:02:28 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080109233125186677.94789e8c@earthlink.net>
References: <20080109202534.3F2A95D381B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>	<p06240800c3ab2502a517@[192.168.0.100]>
	<20080109233125186677.94789e8c@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4785A6DF.8040309@comcast.net>

I have always had the same problem with my USB 2.0 card, and I am currently
running 10.4.11. It doesn't seem to be bus powered devices that cause it,
though, but any storage device (bus powered or not) that is powered on.
So I have to make sure that any USB storage devices on the card are ejected
and powered off before the computer sleeps. Otherwise, the display will
sleep but the computer does not and then there's no way to recover the
display.

Eric

S. Kennedy wrote:
> I have had the same problem when using my usb 2 card on OS 10.3.9.  However, I found that the problem only seems to occur with bus powered devices connected to he usb 2 card.  I have two printers that are self powered and there is no problem with them connected.  I use the built in usb 1 connection for my keyboard and mouse and if I need to use a bus powered device on the usb 2 card I disconnect before sleeping.  A bit of a nuisance but better than a hard shutdown with the startup button on my 1.25 GHz DP MDD.  I haven't seen the problem since upgrading to OS 10.4.11 but I haven't really tested all combinations.
> 
> S. Kennedy
> 
> 
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:35:45 -0500, Technophobic_Tom@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> ...would it be more beneficial to the computer to just leave it run?
>>> There is nothing wrong with sleep.
>> There are exceptions. The USB2 card in my MDD 1.25 DP puts the 
>> machine in a coma if I allow the sleep process, i.e., it can't be 
>> awakened. So I'm limited to sleeping the monitor and HD.
>> -- 
>> T.T.
>> _______________________________________________
>> G4 mailing list
>> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 
From senseamp at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 21:52:44 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Wed Jan  9 21:52:52 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c3ab4df53e04@[192.168.0.100]>
Message-ID: <895608.84920.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

TT,

I have to say no, 'cos I've not really had that many
failures that weren't atributable to me changing
something else while the equipment was turned off.

Many people sell stuff that "worked the last time it
was turned on" :-)

With such a variety of experiences, the only solid
fact is that when unused equipment is left turned on,
power is being consumed wastefully.

John

 
--- Technophobic_Tom@comcast.net wrote:

> >No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off"
> test.
> 
> Ever notice that you find most failures when you go
> to turn on 
> equipment? "It was working fine when I turned it
> off."
> -- 
> T.T.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From senseamp at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 22:03:07 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Wed Jan  9 22:03:16 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <011020080421.17760.47859D36000E4DD70000456022165662760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <564946.88539.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

OK but how does that prove that you would have had
MORE problems if you turned the equipment off. If you
had you would have saved the district some energy
costs for sure (and us taxpayers).

And are you denying that servers usually come with
redundant power supplies? Why would that be? Except
Xserves of course. Apple had to be different.....

Five years is not a long time in terms of component
wearout. And the G4's were replaced because they had
reached the end of there "usefull" life (by Dells -
that sucks). We LEM'ers know better than that though.

John

--- nagable@comcast.net wrote:

> To put a fly in your ointment:
> 
> I used a Power Mac 5500 as a server from 1997 to
> 2005, and 3 G4s from 2000 to 2005. Never shut them
> down.  They were still going when they were replaced
> by Dell servers.  I repaired Macs for a school
> district and rarely had a power supply problem. 
> They were usually left running in the computer labs.
> 
> For what it's worth.
> 
> Nate
>  -------------- Original message
> ----------------------
> From: jonny <g4@salemoregon.com>
> > >I've spent 29 years in the semiconductor industry
> and
> > >have qualified many product after various
> "stress"
> > >tests.
> > >
> > >No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off"
> test
> > >:-)
> > >
> > >We do however perform accelerated life tests at
> above
> > >normal Voltages and temperatures. I have to tell
> you
> > >that semiconductors DO wear out with continuous
> usage.
> > >
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > Thank you, John <all>...for an interesting &
> informative thread.
> > 
> > I'm going to begin shutting down when I'm through
> for the day, and 
> > sleeping when I'm inactive.  I used to do this ALL
> the time, then for 
> > whatever reason, I stopped doing it about a year
> ago.
> > 
> > Thanks for the reminder to protect my mac AND
> conserve energy.
> > 
> > jonny
> 
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
From paul.moortgat at pandora.be  Thu Jan 10 02:20:53 2008
From: paul.moortgat at pandora.be (Paul Moortgat)
Date: Thu Jan 10 02:21:05 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <011020080421.17760.47859D36000E4DD70000456022165662760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>
References: <011020080421.17760.47859D36000E4DD70000456022165662760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <017E2DA5-A6E6-48B3-A3DB-13C3584E5B64@pandora.be>

We've 3 Macs under power.  When not running, they sleep.  For years  
now.  So far so good.

Paul Moortgat

On 10 Jan 2008, at 05:21, nagable@comcast.net wrote:

> To put a fly in your ointment:
>
> I used a Power Mac 5500 as a server from 1997 to 2005, and 3 G4s  
> from 2000 to 2005. Never shut them down.  They were still going  
> when they were replaced by Dell servers.  I repaired Macs for a  
> school district and rarely had a power supply problem.  They were  
> usually left running in the computer labs.
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Nate
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: jonny <g4@salemoregon.com>
>>> I've spent 29 years in the semiconductor industry and
>>> have qualified many product after various "stress"
>>> tests.
>>>
>>> No-one has ever suggested a "turn-on, turn-off" test
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> We do however perform accelerated life tests at above
>>> normal Voltages and temperatures. I have to tell you
>>> that semiconductors DO wear out with continuous usage.
>>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Thank you, John <all>...for an interesting & informative thread.
>>
>> I'm going to begin shutting down when I'm through for the day, and
>> sleeping when I'm inactive.  I used to do this ALL the time, then for
>> whatever reason, I stopped doing it about a year ago.
>>
>> Thanks for the reminder to protect my mac AND conserve energy.
>>
>> jonny
>
From alpoulin at cox.net  Thu Jan 10 10:37:52 2008
From: alpoulin at cox.net (Al Poulin)
Date: Thu Jan 10 10:38:40 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: SLEEP???????????????
In-Reply-To: <20080110040028.2D2575E5C7B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080110040028.2D2575E5C7B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <2aa75d0733a0d23a80f3830a850c7c22@cox.net>

On Jan 9, 2008, at 11:00 PM, g4-request@listserver.themacintoshguy.com 
wrote:

> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:01:12 -0500
> From: "YOUR FRIEND, CHRIS" <august.ham@verizon.net>
>
> issue one {as john mcloughlin sez}, and please don't laugh; how do i
> respond to a specific post? i'm using mac mail and  when i clicked on
> "message-ID" to reply, i get a new compose window - but nothing in
> the subject line, so i sent a new submission. please advise!

I'm not laughing!  I think you are using Apple Mail.  First thing, go 
to the Mail menu at the top left of the screen, select Preferences.  I 
am using OS X 10.3 Panther, but the options are pretty much the same.  
At the top of the Preferences window, select Composing.  There you will 
see a range of options where you can check a box for quoting the text 
of the original message and select the radio button for Including 
selected text.

Then, to reply to a specific message, have the message window open.  At 
your option, you can hit the Reply button so all of the message will 
show up in your outgoing message, or as is better in e-lists like this, 
you should select or highlight only the part of the text you want to 
talk about, then hit the Reply button.  See if that doesn't work for 
you.

Al Poulin

From slugg0 at embarqmail.com  Thu Jan 10 14:00:55 2008
From: slugg0 at embarqmail.com (Doug Burton)
Date: Thu Jan 10 14:01:07 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <017E2DA5-A6E6-48B3-A3DB-13C3584E5B64@pandora.be>
References: <011020080421.17760.47859D36000E4DD70000456022165662760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>
	<017E2DA5-A6E6-48B3-A3DB-13C3584E5B64@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <19532E66-EA04-4D3B-9827-5D3DCD71EF29@embarqmail.com>

Bottom line is this.  Main cause of electronic component failure is  
heat.  Common sense would dictate that if the equipment is off, it  
ain't gettin' hot, unless of course there is a fire, but that is a  
problem for another thread or list.  The current surge experienced  
when equipment is turned on is a normal part of operation.  The  
equipment is designed to be turned off and on or they would not  
include a switch.  In my many years as an electronic technician, I've  
seen equipment fail that was on, off and even unplugged.  Nine times  
out of ten the failure was caused by heat.  The one thing that never  
changed was the customer's insistence that there couldn't be much  
wrong with it 'cause it worked fine yesterday.

Just a message from Doug...

From baltwo at san.rr.com  Thu Jan 10 14:32:06 2008
From: baltwo at san.rr.com (John Baltutis)
Date: Thu Jan 10 14:37:21 2008
Subject: [G4] Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <f05210604c3ac4c8845c4@[192.168.1.100]>

On 01/09/08, John Niven <senseamp@yahoo.com> opined:
>
> With such a variety of experiences, the only solid
> fact is that when unused equipment is left turned on,
> power is being consumed wastefully.

Maintaining equipment at its normal operating temperature is not wasteful.
That's its purpose.
From walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 15:43:55 2008
From: walsh_kevin_t at yahoo.com (Kevin Walsh)
Date: Thu Jan 10 15:44:01 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: Re: Re: Sleep or leave running?
In-Reply-To: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <206143.63400.qm@web37507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Eric's response to Chris
...
>>  i do know a bit about high end stereo equipment,
of which i'm 
>> fortunate enough to own a few components. when i
bought my first
 {solid 
>> state} hi end components in 1985, i was advised to
leave them on ALL
 the 
>> time to protect the internal components of the
units from premature 
>> degradation and or failure due to heating and
cooling cycles - not to
 
>> mention obscene repair costs.
>> 
>> SO - for all intents and purposes my power amp, pre
amp and tuner
 have 
>> NEVER been shut off since their purchase in 1985,
unless i was
 leaving 
>> for more than 48 hours.
>> 
>> i am listening to them as i write this {lowell
fulson!}.
>> they are still ALL original - not even a second of
down time in over 
>> twenty years!
>
>On the other hand, I'm still using the same stereo
equipment I >bought
>in 1975, and it probably has been turned off and on
10,000 times. :)
>
>Eric


I have a Solid State Panasonic Stereo with a funky
pop-up vinyl player - prolly from the early 70's - I
turn it on only when I intend to use it.  And it
functions as the receiver for my CD player and DVD
player (and a better vinyl player).  The crazy thing
has a radio dial that lights up ...somehow,  never
cared to look inside, I can garentee it ain't an LED. 
But the thing's nearly 40 years old and is turned on
and off Daily.  

On the subject of computers - I'm big on saving
energy.  I have 2 of the original iMacs that are never
on unless I need them, they'll soon be a decade old
and still run like champs.  On my G4, I run a Program
called MacJanitor.  Do a google search, you can't miss
it.  It allows you to run all the system mantenance
that occurs between 3am to 5am at your own conveinence
- which is most likely why many of you leave your
machines running.  It's the same stuff you can type in
yourself in the terminal - but this program makes it a
couple strokes of the mouse.

As for the orginal question: Sleep or leave running? 
You've got to stay ontop of your system.  I
experienced something awful with the fixer-upper I
brought up recently.  It was as if the OS went
comatose after 5 hours of sleep.  I added RAM and
cleaned out 4 gigs in the tiny but packed HD.  Now I
turn the thing off at night and leave it off until I
come home from work.  I can run the sucker for hours
at a time, allow the screen saver to run but I never
let it sleep.  My general rule, if you ain't using it,
then power down.  

Peace,
Kevin 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
From fast_primes at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 11 06:36:16 2008
From: fast_primes at hotmail.com (Fast Primes)
Date: Fri Jan 11 06:37:09 2008
Subject: [G4] OS X memory test utility?
In-Reply-To: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-W1359C0E1C1703E059F677B804B0@phx.gbl>


Does OS X (10.2 to 10.4) come with one or more memory test utilities? I've installed new RAM and want to check it out fully! If it's a unix utility--please explain fully how to use it.
 
Thanks.
 
FP
_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008
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From richspk at gmail.com  Fri Jan 11 06:45:32 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Fri Jan 11 06:45:54 2008
Subject: [G4] OS X memory test utility?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W1359C0E1C1703E059F677B804B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002101c85460$9ff709e0$37d816ac@cytyc.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fast Primes
> 
> Does OS X (10.2 to 10.4) come with one or more memory test utilities? I've
> installed new RAM and want to check it out fully! If it's a unix utility--
> please explain fully how to use it.

On x86 computers I've always liked MemTest86 and MemTest86+, so I'd give
this a try:
http://www.memtestosx.org/
I don't know if it's the equal of the x86 programs though.  The x86 ones
boot straight into the program, bypassing the operating system.  MemTestOSX
looks like it runs in OS X, and I kind of doubt you can test the memory as
thoroughly while a big, flashy operating system is running.

-- 
Rich

From senseamp at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 06:48:13 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Fri Jan 11 06:48:32 2008
Subject: [G4] OS X memory test utility?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W1359C0E1C1703E059F677B804B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <316366.60352.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

FP,

Use this. It found subtly bad ram in a PowerBook that
was causing FireFox to crash occasionally. The apple
hardware test passed. 

http://www.kelleycomputing.net:16080/rember/


--- Fast Primes <fast_primes@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Does OS X (10.2 to 10.4) come with one or more
> memory test utilities? I've installed new RAM and
> want to check it out fully! If it's a unix
> utility--please explain fully how to use it.
>  
> Thanks.
>  
> FP
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows
> Live.
>
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008>
_______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

From richspk at gmail.com  Fri Jan 11 07:02:33 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Fri Jan 11 07:04:39 2008
Subject: [G4] OS X memory test utility?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-W1359C0E1C1703E059F677B804B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003401c85462$ff4e7840$37d816ac@cytyc.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fast Primes
> 
> Does OS X (10.2 to 10.4) come with one or more memory test utilities? I've
> installed new RAM and want to check it out fully! If it's a unix utility--
> please explain fully how to use it.

Also, check out this page:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20050524014158525

-- 
Rich

From ljspeer at mac.com  Sat Jan 12 13:56:11 2008
From: ljspeer at mac.com (Luke Speer)
Date: Sat Jan 12 13:56:19 2008
Subject: [G4] Power Conditioner Question
In-Reply-To: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>

Are there any potential benefits in running a SOLA 200 Power Conditioner with my Sawtooth G4.
I am in Australia and our voltage is 240V 50hz AC
240 Volts in 1.15 amps
240 Volts out 1.04 amps
Luke

From richspk at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 14:14:11 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Sat Jan 12 14:14:25 2008
Subject: [G4] Power Conditioner Question
In-Reply-To: <6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
Message-ID: <69ce86c30801121414p142eba79p6d55ad7ce1709cba@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 12, 2008 4:56 PM, Luke Speer <ljspeer@mac.com> wrote:
> Are there any potential benefits in running a SOLA 200 Power Conditioner with my Sawtooth G4.
> I am in Australia and our voltage is 240V 50hz AC
> 240 Volts in 1.15 amps
> 240 Volts out 1.04 amps

I don't know about that particular product, but my computers seem
(completely un-scientific; just my impressions) to be more stable and
reliable since I started using UPSes, which include power
conditioning.  I started with an APC Back-UPS XS 1500 and have since
picked up a couple APC Smart-UPS 1500s.  They are all still in service
and have all been completely trouble-free.  I liked them enough that I
picked up smaller units for my mom and sister, too.

-- 
Rich
From adamss99 at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan 12 14:35:42 2008
From: adamss99 at bellsouth.net (Steve Adams)
Date: Sat Jan 12 14:35:55 2008
Subject: [G4] Power Conditioner Question
In-Reply-To: <6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
Message-ID: <D8C2DFCB-45A3-4F12-A284-FB40A0D87E64@bellsouth.net>

A power conditioner is different from a UPS system. There is no  
battery back up at all.

It is still a benefit to run since it will stop noise, surges, power  
spikes, over voltages, and most under voltage conditions. It will also  
help protect from most lightning strikes. Sola makes some of the best  
power conditioners. As long as you have it, I would say use it.

Steve Adams




On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Luke Speer wrote:

> Are there any potential benefits in running a SOLA 200 Power  
> Conditioner with my Sawtooth G4.
> I am in Australia and our voltage is 240V 50hz AC
> 240 Volts in 1.15 amps
> 240 Volts out 1.04 amps
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From baltwo at san.rr.com  Sat Jan 12 17:07:18 2008
From: baltwo at san.rr.com (John Baltutis)
Date: Sat Jan 12 17:07:38 2008
Subject: [G4] OS X memory test utility?
In-Reply-To: <20080112223553.477F2688F6E@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080112223553.477F2688F6E@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <f05210601c3af14300522@[192.168.1.100]>

On 01/11/08, Fast Primes <fast_primes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does OS X (10.2 to 10.4) come with one or more memory test utilities? I've
>installed new RAM and want to check it out fully! If it's a unix
>utility--please explain fully how to use it.

The basic one is included in the Apple Hardware Test program that shipped with
your machine. Use it first to diagnose most hardware installed. There's nothing
built into the OS for that job. As others have noted, I use Rember if the
machine passes the AHT extended tests and I really want to wring out the RAM.
From cdt at globaldsl.net  Sat Jan 12 18:58:01 2008
From: cdt at globaldsl.net (C D T)
Date: Sat Jan 12 18:58:05 2008
Subject: [G4] Power Conditioner Question
In-Reply-To: <6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
References: <20080110183853.0116E60C2DF@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<6D9F926E-0117-1000-83BD-728CF5835EEC-Webmail-10014@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7877f8e768b509f371712ce94047ca70@globaldsl.net>


On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Luke Speer wrote:

> Are there any potential benefits in running a SOLA 200 Power 
> Conditioner with my Sawtooth G4.
>
I installed computer controlled management systems in buildings for 
years.  We would often have problems with the computers due to 
machinery and large motors starting and stopping and/or other problems 
putting spikes, power bumps and/or intermittent brownouts on the 
building power system.  Sometimes the control computers would get 
completely fried.  We started using (SOLA in particular) power 
conditioners in the worst locations and they worked so well we ended up 
installing them in all locations.  Saved us a small fortune in 
troubleshooting time and equipment repair/replacement.

Dan

From ljspeer at mac.com  Sun Jan 13 04:46:29 2008
From: ljspeer at mac.com (Luke Speer)
Date: Sun Jan 13 04:46:43 2008
Subject: [G4] Re: G4 Digest, Vol 41, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <20080112223553.477F2688F6E@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080112223553.477F2688F6E@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <E988B6DE-9E59-454C-AA7E-E396DD2385F6@mac.com>


Basically its a Couple of Big  Ferroreasonant Capacitors..
I Have it So i'll use it,
  Thanks 
From mwsmith at usfamily.net  Sun Jan 13 18:13:07 2008
From: mwsmith at usfamily.net (Michael W. Smith)
Date: Sun Jan 13 18:13:21 2008
Subject: [G4] G4 Dual Mirror Door and SATA
Message-ID: <C3B02152.8CD3%mwsmith@usfamily.net>

Can I put an Serial ATA Hard Drive in my G4 Dual Mirror Doors?  When I look
at the System Profile there is a listing for both ATA, and SATA (though
after this listed item it says "No information found").  When I look in the
manual for this model it mentions possibly adding an ATA/100 or ATA/66 or
Ultra ATA Hard Drive, but no mention of a Serial ATA.  Any help would be
appreciated. Thanks.


Michael Smith 



From nagable at comcast.net  Sun Jan 13 20:07:34 2008
From: nagable at comcast.net (nagable@comcast.net)
Date: Sun Jan 13 20:08:02 2008
Subject: [G4] G4 Dual Mirror Door and SATA
Message-ID: <011420080407.8356.478AE006000CEE2A000020A422165499760A040D0E090E02@comcast.net>

You need a Serial (SATA) PCI card.  Then you can install the SATA hard drive and connect it up to the card.  i put one in my quicksilver 2002.

Nate
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Michael W. Smith" <mwsmith@usfamily.net>
> Can I put an Serial ATA Hard Drive in my G4 Dual Mirror Doors?  When I look
> at the System Profile there is a listing for both ATA, and SATA (though
> after this listed item it says "No information found").  When I look in the
> manual for this model it mentions possibly adding an ATA/100 or ATA/66 or
> Ultra ATA Hard Drive, but no mention of a Serial ATA.  Any help would be
> appreciated. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Michael Smith 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Mon Jan 14 19:40:41 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon Jan 14 19:40:47 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
Message-ID: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>

I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these attributes:
1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
1.3 GB RAM
USB 2.0 card
2 internal ATA drives:
  - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2 and the other
    has 10.4.11
  - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes database
    (~18 GB and growing slowly)

I want to install Leopard on this system, just because it's the
latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and also to try
out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and not disturb
the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see it are:

1. Install Leopard on the 57 GB drive. Of course this is possible
but I don't like the idea of the OS competing with the iTunes db
for space; there may be sufficient now but eventually there will
be a space problem, and backing up the db will be more difficult.

2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or USB 2.0 drive.
I think this would suffer in performance vs. an internal drive,
since this machine has ATA/66.

3. Put the iTunes db on an external drive and use the 57 GB drive
just for Leopard. This could be done, if the external drive has
enough performance to stream iTunes (probably not a problem).
It would seem a little inconvenient to have to have the external
drive powered up every time iTunes was used though.

4. Replace the 57 GB drive with a 120 GB drive, and partition it,
say 40 GB for Leopard and 80 for iTunes. Unfortunately there is a
128 GB limit for drives on this system, unless a third-party driver
is used - and from what I understand that is not without problems.

5. Add another internal drive to the system. Unfortunately here,
two ATA drives is the maximum. Another drive would require a PCI
controller card for ATA/133, SATA, or SCSI, and probably some
mounting brackets, etc. While this would offer the best performance
it is definitely the most expensive option, and there's still that
128 GB limit.

I'm leaning toward 3 or 4, but I thought I would put it out to the
list to see if anyone has an opinion on the advantages vs. tradeoffs,
or any ideas of other options that I have missed.

Thanks,
Eric
From dancurr at frontiernet.net  Mon Jan 14 20:10:05 2008
From: dancurr at frontiernet.net (Dan A Currie)
Date: Mon Jan 14 20:10:17 2008
Subject: [G4] Spinning wheel
Message-ID: <478C321D.7070205@frontiernet.net>

Hello All,

My MDD DUAL 1.25 MHz / 2 GB RAM / 320 GB HD / NETSCAPE 7.2 / OS X.4.7 
has suddenly begun wasting my time with the "spinning beach ball".

It started this weekend has has become increasingly annoying.

I have run Disk Utilities and Applejack but it persists.

This MAChine has been bulletproof for almost 3 years and this is the 
first problem of any sort that I have had.

Good ideas and suggestions welcome ...

TIA,

Dan

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From richspk at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 20:12:36 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Mon Jan 14 20:12:56 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <69ce86c30801142012x7fa478edj6c41bcd04418f4f8@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 14, 2008 10:40 PM, Eric Smith <eric-s-smith@comcast.net> wrote:
> I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these attributes:
> 1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
> 1.3 GB RAM
> USB 2.0 card
> 2 internal ATA drives:
>   - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2 and the other
>     has 10.4.11
>   - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes database
>     (~18 GB and growing slowly)
>
> I want to install Leopard on this system, just because it's the
> latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and also to try
> out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and not disturb
> the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see it are:
>
> 2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or USB 2.0 drive.
> I think this would suffer in performance vs. an internal drive,
> since this machine has ATA/66.
>
> 3. Put the iTunes db on an external drive and use the 57 GB drive
> just for Leopard. This could be done, if the external drive has
> enough performance to stream iTunes (probably not a problem).
> It would seem a little inconvenient to have to have the external
> drive powered up every time iTunes was used though.

I like option 3 best.  If you go for option 2, can your Mac boot off a
USB drive?  I'd go with a Firewire drive to be sure you can boot off
it.

-- 
Rich
From win.werner at sympatico.ca  Mon Jan 14 20:43:33 2008
From: win.werner at sympatico.ca (Win werner)
Date: Mon Jan 14 20:43:46 2008
Subject: [G4] cant find harddrive
Message-ID: <BAY113-F21BECB93F28758CF24BA35F6470@phx.gbl>

guys - I have a real problem - I am running a G4 - two hardrives

the original one with the system on it an a lot of other stuff - it is ok
another hardrive - partitioned into 4 parttioned - I accidentally erased -
I think I erased it writing 00 over top - it does not come up on the desktop 
and I have no idea how to find it - and mayby restore data on it -
HELP would be greatly appreciated  - thank you
win.werner@sympatico.ca


From obgraph at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 14 20:59:52 2008
From: obgraph at hiwaay.net (O'Brien)
Date: Mon Jan 14 21:00:06 2008
Subject: [G4] cant find harddrive
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F21BECB93F28758CF24BA35F6470@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY113-F21BECB93F28758CF24BA35F6470@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20080114225952.486862.d238e94b@hiwaay.net>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:43:33 -0500, Win werner wrote:
> I think I erased it writing 00 over top - it does not come up on 
the desktop and I have no idea how to find it - and mayby restore 
data on it -

I'm not sure why the drive doesn't show-up on the Desktop -- erasing it, or over-writing it shouldn't cause that. Launch Disk Utilities. Perhaps, it will see the drive. Maybe, the drive directory is corrupted. Can you try Disk Warrior?


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

O'Brien
From braincellmultimedia at rogers.com  Tue Jan 15 02:09:36 2008
From: braincellmultimedia at rogers.com (Tony Gamble)
Date: Tue Jan 15 02:09:51 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <69ce86c30801142012x7fa478edj6c41bcd04418f4f8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
	<69ce86c30801142012x7fa478edj6c41bcd04418f4f8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8ABD654-5E37-4320-A220-0C05AA5A328D@rogers.com>

I highly recommend this option, except make certain it's Firewire and  
not USB (your Mac will not boot from USB).  An external Firewire HD  
would greatly outperform your internal ATA/66 bus.  Actually, make  
that two external HD's, one for Leopard and one of at least the same  
size or larger for Time Machine.  The Time Machine drive can be either  
FW or USB.

- Tony

On 14-Jan-08, at 11:12 PM, Richard Klein wrote:

>> 2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or USB 2.0 drive.
>> I think this would suffer in performance vs. an internal drive,
>> since this machine has ATA/66.

From ben.smith at ntlworld.com  Tue Jan 15 02:55:03 2008
From: ben.smith at ntlworld.com (Ben Smith)
Date: Tue Jan 15 02:55:20 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <20080115100947.BB06F710689@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20080115100947.BB06F710689@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <478C9107.8060905@ntlworld.com>


> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:40:41 -0800
> From: Eric Smith <eric-s-smith@comcast.net>
> Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
> To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> Message-ID: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these attributes:
> 1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
> 1.3 GB RAM
> USB 2.0 card
> 2 internal ATA drives:
>   - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2 and the other
>     has 10.4.11
>   - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes database
>     (~18 GB and growing slowly)
> 
> I want to install Leopard on this system, just because it's the
> latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and also to try
> out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and not disturb
> the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see it are:
> 
<SNIP>
> 5. Add another internal drive to the system. Unfortunately here,
> two ATA drives is the maximum. Another drive would require a PCI
> controller card for ATA/133, SATA, or SCSI, and probably some
> mounting brackets, etc. While this would offer the best performance
> it is definitely the most expensive option, and there's still that
> 128 GB limit.
> 

This option would be the best in the long run, either an ATA/133 card, 
or for future compatibility and speed a SATA card, ensure you get one 
that is bootable, then replace both your existing HDD's with one or 2 
300-500GB HDD's this will give you plenty of speed and space (the 128GB 
limit does not affect PCI cards (or current Firewire HDD's)).
If you fitted a SATA card with a 300GB HDD (currently the best price per 
GB appears to be around 300-500GB) then you could put one of the old 
HDD's in a firewire case, or just connect them one at a time to the old 
IDE bus and use CCC to copy the data to the new drive(s).
As far as power consumption and heat go, new drives tend to be more 
efficient than older ones, so the power consumption (and therefore heat) 
should be the same or lower than your old ones.
For partitioning I would suggest something like 10GB for 9.2.2 and 10GB 
for 10.4.x then 100GB for 10.5.x with the rest for iTunes and photos etc 
  (if you are just using 1 HDD) or copy everything to the 300GB, ditch 
the 20GB and use the 57GB as a test HDD to play with 10.5.x
You don't say what graphics card you have, Leopard flies with a good 
card, but crawls with a poor one, I use a 9800 that I re-flashed from a 
PC, this fully supports core image and QE.
Ben.
NB I run dual 300GB 10000 rpm drives in my MDD with no problems.

(MDD dual 1GHZ, 2GB ram, Radeon-9800Pro, 2x 300GB-10000RPM IDE, 1X 160GB 
IDE, 1x Pioneer DVR111, 1x Pioneer DVR112, 9.2.2, 10.4.11, 10.5.2 BT 
voyager 1040 802.11g PCI wireless (seen as Airport extreme by OSX), 4 
port 'Generic' USB2 card, 19" Widescreen LCD, iSight, Bluetooth etc)
From jonseward at mindspring.com  Tue Jan 15 03:56:50 2008
From: jonseward at mindspring.com (jonseward@mindspring.com)
Date: Tue Jan 15 03:57:41 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
Message-ID: <380-22008121511565056@M2W039.mail2web.com>

Hi Eric,

I've got the same G4 and have 3 drives in it.  I used the second optical
bay and the existing wiring harness to 
connect it and it works fine.  The new 120GB ATA drive is not bootable,
however - if I recall correctly.  Also, I could 
not mount it solidly, as most of the screws don't align.  But it has stayed
in place and worked fine for several years 
now.

Ben's approach is slicker and more professional, gets you more modern and
higher capacity equipment, however.

HTH,

Jon



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Ben Smith ben.smith@ntlworld.com
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:55:03 +0000
To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com, eric-s-smith@comcast.net
Subject: Re:  [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?



> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:40:41 -0800
> From: Eric Smith <eric-s-smith@comcast.net>
> Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
> To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> Message-ID: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these attributes:
> 1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
> 1.3 GB RAM
> USB 2.0 card
> 2 internal ATA drives:
>   - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2 and the other
>     has 10.4.11
>   - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes database
>     (~18 GB and growing slowly)
> 
> I want to install Leopard on this system, just because it's the
> latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and also to try
> out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and not disturb
> the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see it are:
> 
<SNIP>
> 5. Add another internal drive to the system. Unfortunately here,
> two ATA drives is the maximum. Another drive would require a PCI
> controller card for ATA/133, SATA, or SCSI, and probably some
> mounting brackets, etc. While this would offer the best performance
> it is definitely the most expensive option, and there's still that
> 128 GB limit.
> 

This option would be the best in the long run, either an ATA/133 card, 
or for future compatibility and speed a SATA card, ensure you get one 
that is bootable, then replace both your existing HDD's with one or 2 
300-500GB HDD's this will give you plenty of speed and space (the 128GB 
limit does not affect PCI cards (or current Firewire HDD's)).
If you fitted a SATA card with a 300GB HDD (currently the best price per 
GB appears to be around 300-500GB) then you could put one of the old 
HDD's in a firewire case, or just connect them one at a time to the old 
IDE bus and use CCC to copy the data to the new drive(s).
As far as power consumption and heat go, new drives tend to be more 
efficient than older ones, so the power consumption (and therefore heat) 
should be the same or lower than your old ones.
For partitioning I would suggest something like 10GB for 9.2.2 and 10GB 
for 10.4.x then 100GB for 10.5.x with the rest for iTunes and photos etc 
  (if you are just using 1 HDD) or copy everything to the 300GB, ditch 
the 20GB and use the 57GB as a test HDD to play with 10.5.x
You don't say what graphics card you have, Leopard flies with a good 
card, but crawls with a poor one, I use a 9800 that I re-flashed from a 
PC, this fully supports core image and QE.
Ben.
NB I run dual 300GB 10000 rpm drives in my MDD with no problems.

(MDD dual 1GHZ, 2GB ram, Radeon-9800Pro, 2x 300GB-10000RPM IDE, 1X 160GB 
IDE, 1x Pioneer DVR111, 1x Pioneer DVR112, 9.2.2, 10.4.11, 10.5.2 BT 
voyager 1040 802.11g PCI wireless (seen as Airport extreme by OSX), 4 
port 'Generic' USB2 card, 19" Widescreen LCD, iSight, Bluetooth etc)



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From jonseward at mindspring.com  Tue Jan 15 04:09:55 2008
From: jonseward at mindspring.com (jonseward@mindspring.com)
Date: Tue Jan 15 04:10:03 2008
Subject: [G4] cant find harddrive
Message-ID: <380-22008121512955399@M2W002.mail2web.com>

If you deliberately overwrote the drive with zeroes, it might be hosed and
unrecoverable.  The hardware should be 
recognizable by clicking on the Apple icon in the upper left screen, then
clicking the 'More Information' button, and 
the looking at your hardware configuration.  If the drive is physically
connected and spinning, it should be 
recognized as the specific manufactured object, and display how many free
bytes are on the disk.

Disk Warrior is good.  So is Tech Tool.  None of them may be able to bring
back data that was over written multiple 
times.  Perhaps a professional data recovery service could do this.  I
believe they charge several/many hundreds of 
dollars to do this and there is no guarantee they can resurrect the data.

Good luck





Original Message:
-----------------
From: O'Brien obgraph@hiwaay.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:59:52 -0600
To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
Subject: Re: [G4] cant find harddrive


On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:43:33 -0500, Win werner wrote:
> I think I erased it writing 00 over top - it does not come up on 
the desktop and I have no idea how to find it - and mayby restore 
data on it -

I'm not sure why the drive doesn't show-up on the Desktop -- erasing it, or
over-writing it shouldn't cause that. 
Launch Disk Utilities. Perhaps, it will see the drive. Maybe, the drive
directory is corrupted. Can you try Disk Warrior?


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

O'Brien
_

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hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting


From jonseward at mindspring.com  Tue Jan 15 04:26:31 2008
From: jonseward at mindspring.com (jonseward@mindspring.com)
Date: Tue Jan 15 04:26:40 2008
Subject: [G4] Spinning wheel
Message-ID: <380-220081215122631536@M2W033.mail2web.com>

Try emptying caches.  Preferences and Libraries might also need to be
rebuilt.  Perhaps others will weigh in on that.


HTH


jon



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Dan A Currie dancurr@frontiernet.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:10:05 -0600
To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
Subject: [G4] Spinning wheel


Hello All,

My MDD DUAL 1.25 MHz / 2 GB RAM / 320 GB HD / NETSCAPE 7.2 / OS X.4.7 
has suddenly begun wasting my time with the "spinning beach ball".

It started this weekend has has become increasingly annoying.

I have run Disk Utilities and Applejack but it persists.

This MAChine has been bulletproof for almost 3 years and this is the 
first problem of any sort that I have had.

Good ideas and suggestions welcome ...

TIA,

Dan




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From senseamp at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 06:06:55 2008
From: senseamp at yahoo.com (John Niven)
Date: Tue Jan 15 06:07:03 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <651181.25459.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Do you have an external firewire drive?

Very handy, also if you buy one you can always use it
for time machine backups if that works out for you.
Otherwise just use Carbon Copy Cloner.

I love CCC (I donated :-). Other options suggested
seem good but, for minimal investment, an external
firewire harddrive would seem to be best.

I would use CCC to copy the 10Gb Tiger partition to
the external harddrive. Once done check you can boot
from it (select it in startup disk from preferences).
Then you know you can always go back.

Clean install Leopard, wiping the Tiger partition.
Play with it, if your happy keep it, if not, boot from
the ext HD and use CCC to replace Tiger internally -
no harm done.

Whichever way you go, you can still use CCC to copy
your iTunes collection onto the ext HD and keep your
music safe.

John

--- Eric Smith <eric-s-smith@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these
> attributes:
> 1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
> 1.3 GB RAM
> USB 2.0 card
> 2 internal ATA drives:
>   - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2
> and the other
>     has 10.4.11
>   - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes
> database
>     (~18 GB and growing slowly)
> 
> I want to install Leopard on this system, just
> because it's the
> latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and
> also to try
> out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and
> not disturb
> the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see
> it are:
> 
> 1. Install Leopard on the 57 GB drive. Of course
> this is possible
> but I don't like the idea of the OS competing with
> the iTunes db
> for space; there may be sufficient now but
> eventually there will
> be a space problem, and backing up the db will be
> more difficult.
> 
> 2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or
> USB 2.0 drive.
> I think this would suffer in performance vs. an
> internal drive,
> since this machine has ATA/66.
> 
> 3. Put the iTunes db on an external drive and use
> the 57 GB drive
> just for Leopard. This could be done, if the
> external drive has
> enough performance to stream iTunes (probably not a
> problem).
> It would seem a little inconvenient to have to have
> the external
> drive powered up every time iTunes was used though.
> 
> 4. Replace the 57 GB drive with a 120 GB drive, and
> partition it,
> say 40 GB for Leopard and 80 for iTunes.
> Unfortunately there is a
> 128 GB limit for drives on this system, unless a
> third-party driver
> is used - and from what I understand that is not
> without problems.
> 
> 5. Add another internal drive to the system.
> Unfortunately here,
> two ATA drives is the maximum. Another drive would
> require a PCI
> controller card for ATA/133, SATA, or SCSI, and
> probably some
> mounting brackets, etc. While this would offer the
> best performance
> it is definitely the most expensive option, and
> there's still that
> 128 GB limit.
> 
> I'm leaning toward 3 or 4, but I thought I would put
> it out to the
> list to see if anyone has an opinion on the
> advantages vs. tradeoffs,
> or any ideas of other options that I have missed.
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
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From ewood at izoom.net  Tue Jan 15 14:23:03 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Tue Jan 15 14:23:13 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>


Am Jan 14, 2008 um 9:40 PM schrieb Eric Smith:

> I have a Power Mac G4 ("Sawtooth" model) with these attributes:
> 1.0 GHz CPU (Sonnet upgrade)
> 1.3 GB RAM
> USB 2.0 card
> 2 internal ATA drives:
>  - 20 GB drive w/ two partitions, one has OS 9.2.2 and the other
>    has 10.4.11
>  - 57 GB drive at this time mainly holds iTunes database
>    (~18 GB and growing slowly)
>
> I want to install Leopard on this system, just because it's the
> latest and greatest and I want to play with it, and also to try
> out Time Machine. I would do an initial install and not disturb
> the contents of the 20 GB drive. My options as I see it are:

...
>
> 5. Add another internal drive to the system. Unfortunately here,
> two ATA drives is the maximum. Another drive would require a PCI
> controller card for ATA/133, SATA, or SCSI, and probably some
> mounting brackets, etc. While this would offer the best performance
> it is definitely the most expensive option, and there's still that
> 128 GB limit.
>
> I'm leaning toward 3 or 4, but I thought I would put it out to the
> list to see if anyone has an opinion on the advantages vs. tradeoffs,
> or any ideas of other options that I have missed.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>

I replaced the old ATA drives in my G4 with serial ATA, and it's been  
grand. I don't think a SATA card costs very much, and you certainly  
don't need any additional mounting hardware - SATA drives fit fine  
where your ATA drives do. Rather than cluttering your space up with  
external drives, just modernise the inside of that puppy.

Matter of fact, I turned two SATA drives into a software RAID. You'll  
want to keep important data backed up, of course, since if one drive  
goes, it's bound to spell the end of the entire virtual volume.  
Otherwise, I think I'd put Leopard onto one and then use the second  
to store huge data, such as your iTunes library. My drives are 500 GB  
and 120 GB.

Eric W.
From g4 at salemoregon.com  Tue Jan 15 14:37:14 2008
From: g4 at salemoregon.com (jonny)
Date: Tue Jan 15 14:38:35 2008
Subject: [G4] Spinning wheel - DiskWarrior?
In-Reply-To: <380-220081215122631536@M2W033.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220081215122631536@M2W033.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <p06240815c3b2e348644d@[71.237.155.74]>

Hello Dan & thread readers...

I've used DiskWarrior for OS9 for many years, and 
now in OSX for about a year.  In fact, when I 
switched-over to OSX, one of the first things I 
did was buy DiskWarrior for OSX.  I needed my 
'blankie'.  :-)

I don't know if this will help, but I'm using an 
MDD 1.25 FW400 2GB RAM with OSX 3.9...and it 
would be the first thing I would do if I had some 
kind of unusual system occurance.  I run it about 
once a month, just to tidy things up.

Anyone else using DiskWarrior in OSX?  Would you use it in this situation?

jonny

///

>Try emptying caches.  Preferences and Libraries might also need to be
>rebuilt.  Perhaps others will weigh in on that.
>
>
>HTH
>
>
>jon
>
>
>
>Original Message:
>-----------------
>From: Dan A Currie dancurr@frontiernet.net
>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:10:05 -0600
>To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>Subject: [G4] Spinning wheel
>
>
>Hello All,
>
>My MDD DUAL 1.25 MHz / 2 GB RAM / 320 GB HD / NETSCAPE 7.2 / OS X.4.7
>has suddenly begun wasting my time with the "spinning beach ball".
>
>It started this weekend has has become increasingly annoying.
>
>I have run Disk Utilities and Applejack but it persists.
>
>This MAChine has been bulletproof for almost 3 years and this is the
>first problem of any sort that I have had.
>
>Good ideas and suggestions welcome ...
>
>TIA,
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
>http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>G4 mailing list
>G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 17:10:47 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue Jan 15 17:11:05 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <A8ABD654-5E37-4320-A220-0C05AA5A328D@rogers.com>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>	<69ce86c30801142012x7fa478edj6c41bcd04418f4f8@mail.gmail.com>
	<A8ABD654-5E37-4320-A220-0C05AA5A328D@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <478D5997.6010306@comcast.net>

Hi Tony,

Actually I believe (but I'm not certain) that the Sawtooth will
boot from USB. But I disagree that Firewire would outperform ATA/66,
since it only has FW 400. That's a max of 50 MB/s vs. 66.
USB 2.0 would promise a max of 60, but I doubt that actual speeds
can attain that.

Eric

Tony Gamble wrote:
> I highly recommend this option, except make certain it's Firewire and 
> not USB (your Mac will not boot from USB).  An external Firewire HD 
> would greatly outperform your internal ATA/66 bus.  Actually, make that 
> two external HD's, one for Leopard and one of at least the same size or 
> larger for Time Machine.  The Time Machine drive can be either FW or USB.
> 
> - Tony
> 
> On 14-Jan-08, at 11:12 PM, Richard Klein wrote:
> 
>>> 2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or USB 2.0 drive.
>>> I think this would suffer in performance vs. an internal drive,
>>> since this machine has ATA/66.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 
From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 17:15:37 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue Jan 15 17:15:58 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
	<EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>
Message-ID: <478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>

Thanks to everyone who answered. Your suggestion, which is similar
to Ben's, sounds pretty good. I wasn't aware that the 128 GB limit
disappears with an add-on controller card. Any suggestion on SATA
cards? What price do they go for?

Thanks,
Eric

Eric Wood wrote:
> I replaced the old ATA drives in my G4 with serial ATA, and it's been 
> grand. I don't think a SATA card costs very much, and you certainly 
> don't need any additional mounting hardware - SATA drives fit fine where 
> your ATA drives do. Rather than cluttering your space up with external 
> drives, just modernise the inside of that puppy.
> 
> Matter of fact, I turned two SATA drives into a software RAID. You'll 
> want to keep important data backed up, of course, since if one drive 
> goes, it's bound to spell the end of the entire virtual volume. 
> Otherwise, I think I'd put Leopard onto one and then use the second to 
> store huge data, such as your iTunes library. My drives are 500 GB and 
> 120 GB.
> 
> Eric W.
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 
From darrelmorgan at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 17:32:12 2008
From: darrelmorgan at comcast.net (Darrel Morgan)
Date: Tue Jan 15 17:32:32 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
	<EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>
	<478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CD5A7C59-E866-4ECD-847D-838A647FE2CB@comcast.net>

I have a G4 sawtooth, & this is what I'm considering.


http://eshop.macsales.com/item/SIIG/SCSATM12/



On Jan 15, 2008, at 8:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who answered. Your suggestion, which is similar
> to Ben's, sounds pretty good. I wasn't aware that the 128 GB limit
> disappears with an add-on controller card. Any suggestion on SATA
> cards? What price do they go for?
>
>

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From braincellmultimedia at rogers.com  Tue Jan 15 17:49:04 2008
From: braincellmultimedia at rogers.com (Tony Gamble)
Date: Tue Jan 15 17:49:14 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478D5997.6010306@comcast.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>	<69ce86c30801142012x7fa478edj6c41bcd04418f4f8@mail.gmail.com>
	<A8ABD654-5E37-4320-A220-0C05AA5A328D@rogers.com>
	<478D5997.6010306@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <60D7CB51-2539-4205-889B-BB5235C46680@rogers.com>

Absolutely right... I stand corrected.  The Sawtooth can indeed boot  
from its onboard USB... which from what I gathered at the Apple site  
was only USB 1.1... a paltry 12 Mbps.  Not terribly practical for  
booting a full OS, and I'm not certain that bootability would spill  
over onto an add-in 2.0 card.  And yes, the ATA/66 interface is  
definitely faster than FW400, though real life comparison would show  
negligible difference.  Firewire 400 will definitely outperform the  
480 Mbps-rated USB 2.0 for a couple of reasons; one, the Firewire  
controller does all its own work, not relying on the CPU; and two, any  
single device on the USB chain is limited to two thirds of the maximum  
bandwidth.

Thank you for pointing out my errors... it gave me to initiative to go  
out on the web and correct my preconceived and erroneous notions.

Tony

On 15-Jan-08, at 8:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Actually I believe (but I'm not certain) that the Sawtooth will
> boot from USB. But I disagree that Firewire would outperform ATA/66,
> since it only has FW 400. That's a max of 50 MB/s vs. 66.
> USB 2.0 would promise a max of 60, but I doubt that actual speeds
> can attain that.
>
> Eric
>
> Tony Gamble wrote:
>> I highly recommend this option, except make certain it's Firewire  
>> and not USB (your Mac will not boot from USB).  An external  
>> Firewire HD would greatly outperform your internal ATA/66 bus.   
>> Actually, make that two external HD's, one for Leopard and one of  
>> at least the same size or larger for Time Machine.  The Time  
>> Machine drive can be either FW or USB.
>> - Tony
>> On 14-Jan-08, at 11:12 PM, Richard Klein wrote:
>>>> 2. Install Leopard on an external Firewire 400 or USB 2.0 drive.
>>>> I think this would suffer in performance vs. an internal drive,
>>>> since this machine has ATA/66.
>> _______________________________________________
>> G4 mailing list
>> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From jmsparks1 at verizon.net  Tue Jan 15 19:37:40 2008
From: jmsparks1 at verizon.net (John Sparks)
Date: Tue Jan 15 19:37:00 2008
Subject: [G4] SCSI & USB Cards
Message-ID: <F76237CE-22AF-4A61-92CE-AD19823A1876@verizon.net>

Hello Mac Guys:
I've seen comments on this site about these 2 Cards.
I installed a 2906 SCSI & A USB 2.0 Card (A 5 Port IOGEAR)
Neither card is recognized  by my CPU. The 2906 was to connect
my HP 5 Scanner. I wanted to use the ports on the USB Card
for the 3 Printers, an Epson Photo 340,an an Epson Stylus CX5800,
and the HP 990. Only the Hp 990 will function.

I'm using OS 10.4.11 on an MDD Dual 1.25ghz 800.

Am in need of any and all suggestions from fellow MDD and other users.
Thank you. John


From ewood at izoom.net  Tue Jan 15 20:38:19 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Tue Jan 15 20:38:31 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>
	<EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>
	<478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <15468CC0-CE93-404D-B4CB-1BD3D9222155@izoom.net>


Am Jan 15, 2008 um 7:15 PM schrieb Eric Smith:

> Thanks to everyone who answered. Your suggestion, which is similar
> to Ben's, sounds pretty good. I wasn't aware that the 128 GB limit
> disappears with an add-on controller card. Any suggestion on SATA
> cards? What price do they go for?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric

I have something very much like the card to which Darrel was linking.  
Mine's been great, and I'm sure anything you get from OWC is bound to  
be likewise.

Eric W.
From ewood at izoom.net  Tue Jan 15 20:46:08 2008
From: ewood at izoom.net (Eric Wood)
Date: Tue Jan 15 20:46:19 2008
Subject: [G4] SCSI & USB Cards
In-Reply-To: <F76237CE-22AF-4A61-92CE-AD19823A1876@verizon.net>
References: <F76237CE-22AF-4A61-92CE-AD19823A1876@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <E14A2B47-095B-477B-9ADC-3A3DE95FD0A4@izoom.net>

Am Jan 15, 2008 um 9:37 PM schrieb John Sparks:

> Hello Mac Guys:
> I've seen comments on this site about these 2 Cards.
> I installed a 2906 SCSI & A USB 2.0 Card (A 5 Port IOGEAR)
> Neither card is recognized  by my CPU. The 2906 was to connect
> my HP 5 Scanner. I wanted to use the ports on the USB Card
> for the 3 Printers, an Epson Photo 340,an an Epson Stylus CX5800,
> and the HP 990. Only the Hp 990 will function.
>
> I'm using OS 10.4.11 on an MDD Dual 1.25ghz 800.
>
> Am in need of any and all suggestions from fellow MDD and other users.
> Thank you. John

It sounds like the USB 2.0 card does actually work if one of the  
printers will work through it. I assume you bought the cards new or  
as tested, used hardware? I assume also that that one printer works  
on all available USB ports?

As for your SCSI card, a little research has turned up the following:  
http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?p=441350

So, I'd say a new SCSI card is in order. Best to leave the 2906 to a  
different system or a different user.

Eric
From jimash at optonline.net  Tue Jan 15 21:54:02 2008
From: jimash at optonline.net (James Asherman)
Date: Tue Jan 15 21:54:12 2008
Subject: [G4] SCSI & USB Cards
In-Reply-To: <F76237CE-22AF-4A61-92CE-AD19823A1876@verizon.net>
References: <F76237CE-22AF-4A61-92CE-AD19823A1876@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9A3FFD97-AA95-42D1-80F3-60707EDC26CF@optonline.net>

I put one of these in the Quicksilver:
http://www.amazon.com/ADS-Technologies-Turbo-Upgraderade-USBX-2000/dp/B00006B6Q1/ref=cm_cr-mr-title
Works like a charm. I installed some lonely piece of software that may  
or may not be relevant, just to be thorough.
Unless there is some lonely well hidden software bit on a CD that came  
with your cards, just go ahead and switch to the ADS. Works good even  
through a D-Link hub.
Jim
On Jan 15, 2008, at 10:37 PM, John Sparks wrote:

> Hello Mac Guys:
> I've seen comments on this site about these 2 Cards.
> I installed a 2906 SCSI & A USB 2.0 Card (A 5 Port IOGEAR)
> Neither card is recognized  by my CPU. The 2906 was to connect
> my HP 5 Scanner. I wanted to use the ports on the USB Card
> for the 3 Printers, an Epson Photo 340,an an Epson Stylus CX5800,
> and the HP 990. Only the Hp 990 will function.
>
> I'm using OS 10.4.11 on an MDD Dual 1.25ghz 800.
>
> Am in need of any and all suggestions from fellow MDD and other users.
> Thank you. John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4

From eric-s-smith at comcast.net  Tue Jan 15 23:35:17 2008
From: eric-s-smith at comcast.net (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue Jan 15 23:35:29 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <15468CC0-CE93-404D-B4CB-1BD3D9222155@izoom.net>
References: <478C2B39.2050803@comcast.net>	<EA48AFB9-394F-4177-9A92-8C208FE98AA8@izoom.net>	<478D5AB9.7080905@comcast.net>
	<15468CC0-CE93-404D-B4CB-1BD3D9222155@izoom.net>
Message-ID: <478DB3B5.90403@comcast.net>

Thanks to both. By the way, the info on the controller says,
"Can be used as the boot controller when a bootable hard disk
drive is attached." How can you tell which drives are bootable?

Thanks,
Eric

Eric Wood wrote:
> I have something very much like the card to which Darrel was linking. 
> Mine's been great, and I'm sure anything you get from OWC is bound to be 
> likewise.
> 
> Eric W.
> _______________________________________________
> G4 mailing list
> G4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/g4
> 
From jonseward at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 16 03:57:18 2008
From: jonseward at mindspring.com (jonseward@mindspring.com)
Date: Wed Jan 16 03:57:30 2008
Subject: [G4] SCSI & USB Cards
Message-ID: <380-220081316115718861@M2W022.mail2web.com>

How about searching the manufacturers support or download site for drivers?



Original Message:
-----------------
From: James Asherman jimash@optonline.net
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 00:54:02 -0500
To: g4@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
Subject: Re: [G4] SCSI & USB Cards


I put one of these in the Quicksilver:
http://www.amazon.com/ADS-Technologies-Turbo-Upgraderade-USBX-2000/dp/B00006
B6Q1/ref=cm_cr-mr-
title
Works like a charm. I installed some lonely piece of software that may  
or may not be relevant, just to be thorough.
Unless there is some lonely well hidden software bit on a CD that came  
with your cards, just go ahead and switch to the ADS. Works good even  
through a D-Link hub.
Jim
On Jan 15, 2008, at 10:37 PM, John Sparks wrote:

> Hello Mac Guys:
> I've seen comments on this site about these 2 Cards.
> I installed a 2906 SCSI & A USB 2.0 Card (A 5 Port IOGEAR)
> Neither card is recognized  by my CPU. The 2906 was to connect
> my HP 5 Scanner. I wanted to use the ports on the USB Card
> for the 3 Printers, an Epson Photo 340,an an Epson Stylus CX5800,
> and the HP 990. Only the Hp 990 will function.
>
> I'm using OS 10.4.11 on an MDD Dual 1.25ghz 800.
>
> Am in need of any and all suggestions from fellow MDD and other users.
> Thank you. John



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From richspk at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 06:11:29 2008
From: richspk at gmail.com (Richard Klein)
Date: Wed Jan 16 06:11:41 2008
Subject: [G4] Options for adding disk space to Power Mac G4?
In-Reply-To: <478DB3B5.90403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000601c85849$b2530020$37d816ac@cytyc.com>

Any drive can be bootable; it depends if the appropriate information is
wr