I've never seen the point of these environments on Unix. My vote has gone for a long time, and still goes, to fvwm2 as window manager. It's fast and still very configurable. Between that for windows management and my own shell scripting skills I have no need for further functionality. And fink works pretty good on average. I had a conflict between some packages a while ago, but the guys on the mailing lists are very helpful in overcoming that sort of thing. V. -- Victor Eijkhout -- 865 974 9308 Department of Computer Science University of Tennessee, Knoxville TN 37996