From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec  1 10:25:26 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Sun Dec  2 22:45:17 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?
In-Reply-To: <A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
References: <855DD0F3-741B-488A-B947-4F4D348F5207@gmail.com>
	<a0624082dc3755c94ce1f@[192.168.1.103]>
	<A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>

At 22:37 +0000 30/11/07, Stroller wrote:
>On 30 Nov 2007, at 06:32, David Ledger wrote:
>>  That's the way some of the Linux distributions are going - at 
>>least, the HP RedHat one is. It's the thing I most dislike about 
>>Linux. Lots of people making trivial changes to make it the way 
>>*they* think it should be. Under HP RedHat, 'ls' sorts the '.' 
>>files amongst the others. Why?
>Are you sure this isn't configured in the distro's default 
>.bash_profile or .bashrc? (or /etc/profile?)

Does the same when using /bin/ls, so it's not an inherited alias or 
function. I work under ksh with my own aliases pointing back at 
/bin/ls anyway.

>The GNU versions of the "standard utilities" are different from 
>those in Posix, System V or the BSDs, but I personally think these 
>changes are often (much needed) improvements upon the originals and 
>are generally for the best. IMO Bash & the GNU utilis are what a 
>modern Unix shouldbe aiming for - it's certainly my expectation in 
>terms of ease-of-use.

I've yet to find a change that I would class as a much needed 
improvement other than 'tar's new unwillingness to archive from '/'. 
I've no problem with them making the changes they do, as long as they 
require a flag, environment variable or '.' file to trigger them. 
Just making arbitrary changes break what would be cross platform 
scripts.

When I used to do 'ssh <host> <command>' I now have to do
	case "$(ssh <host> uname)" in
	Linux)	ssh <host> <Linux version of command> ;;
	*)	ssh <host> <command> ;;
	esac
or I would if I didn't have a local cache of what each host runs to 
query instead.

As for ease of use, I don't know what is easier about Linux. One of 
the original command line objectives of Unix, never use two 
keystrokes where one would do, is lost in Linux with its 
--givetheoptionalongnamesopeopleknowwhatitsdoes flags that you can't 
remember.

>I'd be surprised if Dead Rat - or any other modern distro - is using 
>any other version of `ls` than the GNU one. I think that - with a 
>bit of hunting around - it should be possible to pin down how `ls` 
>is being called and get it to behave the way you expect.

I wouldn't know what the GNU one is like. My Linux exposure is small, 
as it's mainly useful on the desktop. These machines are some that 
are used at the enterprise level, and proving weekly that it's not 
quite ready yet.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From macdaddee at gmail.com  Sun Dec  2 19:18:01 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Sun Dec  2 23:54:48 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?
In-Reply-To: <r219-1051-i386-A459B087768C4B11A140CAC496FB7234@crocodile.local>
References: <r219-1051-i386-A459B087768C4B11A140CAC496FB7234@crocodile.local>
Message-ID: <F43672E3-2327-4FBD-A477-04580C02006F@gmail.com>

Iiiiiinnnteresting.  So "less is more" really IS true in OS X!  I  
never knew that.

So after perusing 'man less', I see 'less -E' or, 'more -E' makes more  
behave like it used to under 10.4. An ANNOYING change! I've aliased  
more to more -E in /etc/bashrc so I won't have to put up with it again.

Thanks.

Someone else mentioned that this is the way some linuxes are going.  
Well thankfully in RHEL5 or Fedora Core 6 I have not seen this.  
Haven't tried FC7 yet.

- md


On Nov 30, 2007, at 10:13 AM, James Bucanek wrote:

> Eric F Crist <mailto:ecrist@secure-computing.net> wrote (Friday,  
> November 30, 2007 6:30 AM -0600):
>
>> On Nov 29, 2007, at 10:05 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>
>>> Every time I 'more' something in Leopard, the output ends with a  
>>> reverse text  "<filename> 99%" line. THEN if I hit a key, I get a  
>>> reverse text "(END)", THEN if I hit a key I get my prompt. Grrr.  
>>> HOW ANNOYING! This never happened back with Tiger.
>>>
>>> How can I stop this and go back to my file scrolling out and then  
>>> ending with my prompt again?
>>>
>>> -md
>>
>> I'm not experiencing the same symptoms on my 10.5.1 system here.  
>> Until you get it fixed, you could use 'less' as a replacement.
>
> He is using less. more has been hard linked to less since Panther,  
> maybe earlier.
>
> When less is executed as more it runs in more compatibility mode.  
> There might be some clues there as to what's going on. See man less.
> -- 
> James Bucanek

From luomat at gmail.com  Sat Dec  8 12:30:14 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Sat Dec  8 12:30:20 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>

I'm so sick and tired of Finder.

It seems like every single time I try a long move process via Finder,
especially when dealing with external hard drives.

I usually end up coming back later and find some excuse about
permissions or whatnot.  Normally completely useless error messages.

I've got partially moved folders (normally part of the 'copy' part
works but it never gets to the delete part) that I want to
consolidate.

So I'm thinking of making a shell script that will:

1) compare two folders

2) move files from SOURCE to TARGET which don't exist on TARGET

3) compare files which exist on both.
3a) If identical, delete the copy from SOURCE.
3b) If not identical, move from SOURCE to TARGET


But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"

Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?

TjL
From fin at finseth.com  Sat Dec  8 14:17:41 2007
From: fin at finseth.com (Craig A. Finseth)
Date: Sat Dec  8 14:17:46 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
	(message from TjL on Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:30:14 -0500)
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com>

	...
   So I'm thinking of making a shell script that will:

   1) compare two folders

   2) move files from SOURCE to TARGET which don't exist on TARGET

   3) compare files which exist on both.
   3a) If identical, delete the copy from SOURCE.
   3b) If not identical, move from SOURCE to TARGET


   But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"

   Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?

>From your description:

	cp -R <source> <target>

should do the trick.  Read the man page.

Craig
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sat Dec  8 14:27:58 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (=?utf-8?B?RXJpYyBGIENyaXN0?=)
Date: Sat Dec  8 14:29:26 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <815428327-1197152958-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169808200-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Move from the CLI isn't broken. Just do. Your moves from there.


---
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks  

-----Original Message-----
From: TjL <luomat@gmail.com>

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:30:14 
To:x-unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'


I'm so sick and tired of Finder.

It seems like every single time I try a long move process via Finder,
especially when dealing with external hard drives.

I usually end up coming back later and find some excuse about
permissions or whatnot.  Normally completely useless error messages.

I've got partially moved folders (normally part of the 'copy' part
works but it never gets to the delete part) that I want to
consolidate.

So I'm thinking of making a shell script that will:

1) compare two folders

2) move files from SOURCE to TARGET which don't exist on TARGET

3) compare files which exist on both.
3a) If identical, delete the copy from SOURCE.
3b) If not identical, move from SOURCE to TARGET


But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"

Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?

TjL
_______________________________________________
X-Unix mailing list
X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
From luomat at gmail.com  Sat Dec  8 15:40:56 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Sat Dec  8 15:41:01 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712081540x5d69e3f0idb977f514904c98e@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2007 5:17 PM, Craig A. Finseth <fin@finseth.com> wrote:

> >From your description:
>
>         cp -R <source> <target>

That won't remove the files from the source.  I could do

       cp -R  <source> <target> && rm -rf <source>

but that will fail because some of the files already exist, so the rm
part of the command will not execute.  So I could just run rm -rf
<source> but that seems rather dangerous to me.

I've got a script that I've been working on.  I've attached it here
(not sure if the list allows attachments, guess I'll find out).

Comments welcome.

TjL
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: compare-and-move.sh.bz2
Type: application/x-bzip2
Size: 1936 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/pipermail/x-unix/attachments/20071208/5ce094a5/compare-and-move.sh.bin
From philip.robar at gmail.com  Sat Dec  8 15:56:47 2007
From: philip.robar at gmail.com (Philip J Robar)
Date: Sat Dec  8 15:57:10 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74B24BD4-0815-4384-8B20-0CBC67809EAE@gmail.com>


On Dec 8, 2007, at 12:30 PM, TjL wrote:

> I'm so sick and tired of Finder.
>
> [Description of mov(1) problems]
>
> But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"
>
> Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?

Carbon Copy Cloner (free) <http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html>

SuperDuper! (not free) <http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/>

Phil

From luomat at gmail.com  Sat Dec  8 15:59:17 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Sat Dec  8 15:59:27 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <74B24BD4-0815-4384-8B20-0CBC67809EAE@gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
	<74B24BD4-0815-4384-8B20-0CBC67809EAE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712081559l5476351x1808e4fa87eeb6fe@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2007 6:56 PM, Philip J Robar <philip.robar@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 8, 2007, at 12:30 PM, TjL wrote:
>
> > I'm so sick and tired of Finder.
> >
> > [Description of mov(1) problems]
> >
> > But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"
> >
> > Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?
>
> Carbon Copy Cloner (free) <http://www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html>
>
> SuperDuper! (not free) <http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/>
>

Do either of them delete files after they copy them?
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sat Dec  8 17:40:32 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (=?utf-8?B?RXJpYyBGIENyaXN0?=)
Date: Sat Dec  8 17:42:01 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712081540x5d69e3f0idb977f514904c98e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com><20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com><d2ecb10b0712081540x5d69e3f0idb977f514904c98e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1517569126-1197164513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-28669109-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Rsync -v <source> <destination> && rm -r <source>

Check my work on the rsync options, I can't verify from the restaurant. ;)
---
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks  

-----Original Message-----
From: TjL <luomat@gmail.com>

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:40:56 
To:fin@finseth.com,"A place to discuss Mac OS X from the perspective of the command line." <x-unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Subject: Re: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'


On Dec 8, 2007 5:17 PM, Craig A. Finseth <fin@finseth.com> wrote:

> >From your description:
>
>         cp -R <source> <target>

That won't remove the files from the source.  I could do

       cp -R  <source> <target> && rm -rf <source>

but that will fail because some of the files already exist, so the rm
part of the command will not execute.  So I could just run rm -rf
<source> but that seems rather dangerous to me.

I've got a script that I've been working on.  I've attached it here
(not sure if the list allows attachments, guess I'll find out).

Comments welcome.

TjL

_______________________________________________
X-Unix mailing list
X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sat Dec  8 21:01:40 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sat Dec  8 22:18:00 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <1517569126-1197164513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-28669109-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com><20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com><d2ecb10b0712081540x5d69e3f0idb977f514904c98e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1517569126-1197164513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-28669109-@bxe016.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <9E78C9A0-FEBA-4896-A852-0655C3E43053@secure-computing.net>

OK, so the correct options are -av, so the correct command would be  
the following:

rsync -av <curr_dir> <new_dir> && rm -r <curr_dir>

HTH


Eric



On Dec 8, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Rsync -v <source> <destination> && rm -r <source>
>
> Check my work on the rsync options, I can't verify from the  
> restaurant. ;)
> ---
> Eric F Crist
> Secure Computing Networks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TjL <luomat@gmail.com>
>
> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 18:40:56
> To:fin@finseth.com,"A place to discuss Mac OS X from the perspective  
> of the command line." <x-unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
> Subject: Re: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2007 5:17 PM, Craig A. Finseth <fin@finseth.com> wrote:
>
>>> From your description:
>>
>>        cp -R <source> <target>
>
> That won't remove the files from the source.  I could do
>
>       cp -R  <source> <target> && rm -rf <source>
>
> but that will fail because some of the files already exist, so the rm
> part of the command will not execute.  So I could just run rm -rf
> <source> but that seems rather dangerous to me.
>
> I've got a script that I've been working on.  I've attached it here
> (not sure if the list allows attachments, guess I'll find out).
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> TjL
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Sat Dec  8 23:56:59 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Sat Dec  8 23:57:06 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?   [a}
In-Reply-To: <a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
References: <855DD0F3-741B-488A-B947-4F4D348F5207@gmail.com>
	<a0624082dc3755c94ce1f@[192.168.1.103]>
	<A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
	<a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
Message-ID: <C68A2F98-2610-4CEF-842F-BB454B665F31@myrealbox.com>

I've had the mailbounce from this (7kb, limit of 5kb) for a few days  
- sorry I haven't gotten round to resending it before.

On 1 Dec 2007, at 18:25, David Ledger wrote:

> At 22:37 +0000 30/11/07, Stroller wrote:
>> On 30 Nov 2007, at 06:32, David Ledger wrote:
>>>  That's the way some of the Linux distributions are going - at  
>>> least, the HP RedHat one is. It's the thing I most dislike about  
>>> Linux. Lots of people making trivial changes to make it the way  
>>> *they* think it should be. Under HP RedHat, 'ls' sorts the '.'  
>>> files amongst the others. Why?
>> Are you sure this isn't configured in the distro's  
>> default .bash_profile or .bashrc? (or /etc/profile?)
>
> Does the same when using /bin/ls, so it's not an inherited alias or  
> function. I work under ksh with my own aliases pointing back at / 
> bin/ls anyway.

I don't quite know how to respond to this, because I don't quite  
understand the symptoms. If you'd like to explain this `ls` sorting a  
bit better - or give an example of the output? - I'd love to get to  
the bottom of this & prove that it's a bug (whether the fault of  
yourself, your distro or GNU, it doesn't matter to me), rather than a  
feature.

Note:
      (1) If you use a non-POSIX locale (e.g., by setting `LC_ALL' to
   `en_US'), then `ls' may produce output that is sorted differently  
than
   you're accustomed to.  In that case, set the `LC_ALL' environment
   variable to `C'.
   [from `info ls`]

>
>> The GNU versions of the "standard utilities" are different from  
>> those in Posix, System V or the BSDs, but I personally think these  
>> changes are often (much needed) improvements upon the originals  
>> and are generally for the best. IMO Bash & the GNU utilis are what  
>> a modern Unix shouldbe aiming for - it's certainly my expectation  
>> in terms of ease-of-use.
>
> I've yet to find a change that I would class as a much needed  
> improvement other than 'tar's new unwillingness to archive from '/'.

Ok, I don't know about your tar problem (it appears to work fine here)

Looking just at `ls` [1] I can immediately imagine occasions when the  
'-A", "-b", "-m" and "-i" GNU options could be useful. I admit I  
can't think of "much needed" improvements off the top of my head, but  
I bet I could find some if I spent enough time looking. I just don't  
think a language should stay static just because "this is the way  
we've always done things".

> I've no problem with them making the changes they do, as long as  
> they require a flag, environment variable or '.' file to trigger  
> them. Just making arbitrary changes break what would be cross  
> platform scripts.

I believe that there few GNU additions that break cross-platform  
scripts - all GNU utilities that I'm aware of accept POSIX options  
and it's clearly the intention that they behave correctly when POSIX  
options are provided.

[CONTINUED...]


[1] http://www.itqb.unl.pt:1111/~jcarrico/biomat/helpdesk/rman/ls.php3
From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Sat Dec  8 23:58:16 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Sat Dec  8 23:58:26 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?    [b]
In-Reply-To: <a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
References: <855DD0F3-741B-488A-B947-4F4D348F5207@gmail.com>
	<a0624082dc3755c94ce1f@[192.168.1.103]>
	<A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
	<a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
Message-ID: <B5B79A18-216A-4EAA-B36C-113EC316535C@myrealbox.com>

[...CONTINUED]

On 1 Dec 2007, at 18:25, David Ledger wrote:
> ...
> As for ease of use, I don't know what is easier about Linux. One of  
> the original command line objectives of Unix, never use two  
> keystrokes where one would do, is lost in Linux with its -- 
> givetheoptionalongnamesopeopleknowwhatitsdoes flags that you can't  
> remember.

The --givetheoptionalongnamesopeopleknowwhatitsdoes flags are no  
specified for exactly that reason.

Hardly anyone continues to use that format once they're familiar with  
a command - one will naturally use the "-v" form - but if you use a  
command infrequently then the long version may be more memorable (not  
less, as you assert).

These flags are most useful when demonstrating commands to other  
people - when you're writing an email to someone who's having  
problems with their system it's easier to say "use `ls --sort-by- 
colour --ignore-directories" rather than "use `ls -xyz`" and then  
have to spend time explaining what "-x", "-y" and "-z" do (and  
politer than just saying "use `ls -xyz`" and leaving the poor user  
baffled by these esoteric flags which make no sense at all to them.  
"Oh, read the manpage" is the cry thrown out at n00bs 10 years ago,  
but honestly one can waste HOURS learning Unix).

"--givetheoptionalongnamesopeopleknowwhatitsdoes" is also nice in  
scripts - assuming they're not intended to be cross-platform -  
because it helps document the script.

Whilst I kinda agree in principle with "never use two keystrokes  
where one would do" - or rather "never use one command when you can  
pipe two command together" - I find it much easier to look up the  
manpage of a command I already know to see if it's got an option to  
do what I need, rather than to find a command I've never used before  
in order to rearrange the output. This is most striking when there's  
a command you used once before and the name of it is on the tip of  
your tongue but you can't quite remember what it is. You know you  
used it in conjunction with `ls`, but since it's a separate command  
(rather than a useful additional flag) it's not mentioned in the `ls`  
manpage.

I have a great example here of how the traditional way of doing Unix  
commands is obscure & unhelpful, but I don't quite have time right  
now to explain my complaints about it, as I have to run out.

>> I'd be surprised if Dead Rat - or any other modern distro - is  
>> using any other version of `ls` than the GNU one. I think that -  
>> with a bit of hunting around - it should be possible to pin down  
>> how `ls` is being called and get it to behave the way you expect.
>
> I wouldn't know what the GNU one is like. My Linux exposure is  
> small, as it's mainly useful on the desktop. These machines are  
> some that are used at the enterprise level, and proving weekly that  
> it's not quite ready yet.

If you're using Linux at the enterprise level then doesn't that prove  
it's ready?   ;)

I think you'll find that RedHat - as most ALL Linux distros - uses  
the GNU version of `ls`:

   $ ls --version
   ls (GNU coreutils) 6.9
   Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
   This is free software.  You may redistribute copies of it under  
the terms of
   the GNU General Public License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/ 
gpl.html>.
   There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

   Written by Richard Stallman and David MacKenzie.
   $

I'm not saying you're wrong - it's up to you what you prefer - just  
that there are valid reasons for doing things differently, and that  
nothing goes unchanged or stays the same forever (unless you choose  
to install BSD on your servers).

Stroller.

From list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net  Sun Dec  9 07:28:20 2007
From: list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net (Eugene)
Date: Sun Dec  9 07:28:31 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Finder FUBARs another 'move'
In-Reply-To: <20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712081230m2e6ab053he54e8ce435196f34@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071208221741.1FC7E76D04@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <20071209152820.GA194@Macintosh.local>

On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 04:17:41PM CST, Craig A. Finseth <fin@finseth.com> wrote:
> TjL <luomat@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 	...
> >    So I'm thinking of making a shell script that will:
> > 
> >    1) compare two folders
> > 
> >    2) move files from SOURCE to TARGET which don't exist on TARGET
> > 
> >    3) compare files which exist on both.
> >    3a) If identical, delete the copy from SOURCE.
> >    3b) If not identical, move from SOURCE to TARGET
> > 
> > 
> >    But then I thought "I wonder if I'm reinventing the wheel?"
> > 
> >    Any ideas?  Where should I be looking?
> 
> >From your description:
> 
> 	cp -R <source> <target>
> 
> should do the trick.  Read the man page.

If <source> is a directory, -R copies that directory and everything
underneath to the <target> directory.  It does not, however, test for
"existing" files between <source> and <target>.  Read the man page.


-- 
Eugene
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  9 09:36:16 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Sun Dec  9 10:04:26 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?   [a}
In-Reply-To: <C68A2F98-2610-4CEF-842F-BB454B665F31@myrealbox.com>
References: <855DD0F3-741B-488A-B947-4F4D348F5207@gmail.com>
	<a0624082dc3755c94ce1f@[192.168.1.103]>
	<A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
	<a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
	<C68A2F98-2610-4CEF-842F-BB454B665F31@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <a0624087ec381a32ef761@[192.168.1.103]>

At 07:56 +0000 9/12/07, Stroller wrote:
>I've had the mailbounce from this (7kb, limit of 5kb) for a few days 
>- sorry I haven't gotten round to resending it before.

And I've been lighting the village pantomime.

>On 1 Dec 2007, at 18:25, David Ledger wrote:
>>  At 22:37 +0000 30/11/07, Stroller wrote:
>>>  On 30 Nov 2007, at 06:32, David Ledger wrote:
>>>>   That's the way some of the Linux distributions are going - at 
>>>>least, the HP RedHat one is. It's the thing I most dislike about 
>>>>Linux. Lots of people making trivial changes to make it the way 
>>>>*they* think it should be. Under HP RedHat, 'ls' sorts the '.' 
>>>>files amongst the others. Why?
>>>  Are you sure this isn't configured in the distro's default 
>>>.bash_profile or .bashrc? (or /etc/profile?)
>>
>>  Does the same when using /bin/ls, so it's not an inherited alias 
>>or function. I work under ksh with my own aliases pointing back at 
>>/bin/ls anyway.
>
>I don't quite know how to respond to this, because I don't quite 
>understand the symptoms. If you'd like to explain this `ls` sorting 
>a bit better - or give an example of the output? - I'd love to get 
>to the bottom of this & prove that it's a bug (whether the fault of 
>yourself, your distro or GNU, it doesn't matter to me), rather than 
>a feature.

It sorts '.' files as if the '.' were not present - so '.profile' 
sorts into the 'p's rather than between .kshrc and .ssh; which 
themselves are among the 'k's and the 's's.

>Note:
>      (1) If you use a non-POSIX locale (e.g., by setting `LC_ALL' to
>   `en_US'), then `ls' may produce output that is sorted differently than
>   you're accustomed to.  In that case, set the `LC_ALL' environment
>   variable to `C'.
>   [from `info ls`]

Hadn't thought of locale. It will be the default, which is usually 'C'.

>>>  The GNU versions of the "standard utilities" are different from 
>>>those in Posix, System V or the BSDs, but I personally think these 
>>>changes are often (much needed) improvements upon the originals 
>>>and are generally for the best. IMO Bash & the GNU utilis are what 
>>>a modern Unix shouldbe aiming for - it's certainly my expectation 
>>>in terms of ease-of-use.
>>
>>  I've yet to find a change that I would class as a much needed 
>>improvement other than 'tar's new unwillingness to archive from '/'.
>Ok, I don't know about your tar problem (it appears to work fine here)

As I say, that is one improvement. Under 'real' tar, 'tar cf bin.tar 
/bin' would put a tar archive of /bin to file bin.tar; and later 'tar 
xf bin.tar' would only restore to /bin. no way to unarchive to 
/tmp/bin or anywhere else. This often caught people out. The GNU tar 
removes the leading '/' on archiving so that unarchiving creates a 
'bin' directory in the current directory which can be anywhere.

>Looking just at `ls` [1] I can immediately imagine occasions when 
>the '-A", "-b", "-m" and "-i" GNU options could be useful. I admit I 
>can't think of "much needed" improvements off the top of my head, 
>but I bet I could find some if I spent enough time looking. I just 
>don't think a language should stay static just because "this is the 
>way we've always done things".

-A -b and -i are standard back, I think, to Version 6. Changes should 
always be able to be turned off.

>I believe that there few GNU additions that break cross-platform 
>scripts - all GNU utilities that I'm aware of accept POSIX options 
>and it's clearly the intention that they behave correctly when POSIX 
>options are provided.

Unfortunately POSIX compliance has nothing to do with this sort of 
thing. Some version of VMS is POSIX compliant and nothing like Unix 
at the keyboard.

>The --givetheoptionalongnamesopeopleknowwhatitsdoes flags are no 
>specified for exactly that reason.
>Hardly anyone continues to use that format once they're familiar 
>with a command - one will naturally use the "-v" form - but if you 
>use a command infrequently then the long version may be more 
>memorable (not less, as you assert).

Far from all commands have simple flags that correspond to the full 
ones. The long ones are far from memorable, bearing in mind that they 
don't work if you make a minor error. As for emailing, I'm not sure 
where politeness comes in. If 'ls -xyz' is the command then 'ls -xyz' 
is the command. You can always add xmeans ... , y means ... . The 
short form is also less likely to get wrapped.

>If you're using Linux at the enterprise level then doesn't that 
>prove it's ready?   ;)

No. It causes so many problems. What use is a system which, on losing 
connection to storage on the SAN for a few milliseconds (which can 
happen at busy times), decides to change the mount to read-only - the 
only fix being a reboot. Luckily for the users load sharing covers 
the tracks when these errant servers are rebooted, but the service 
does stall for some when it happens.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From macdaddee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 08:31:11 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Mon Dec 17 08:31:27 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
Message-ID: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>

I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the changes  
they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!

At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into any  
one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes up.  
Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ... strange ... when  
you used it the other way before).

On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
installation was any different or better. It's different allright, but  
not better! Grrr.

Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of my  
linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!

Anybody else had this and overcome it?


-md

P.S.

Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^&  
long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they  
just want to annoy?
From rdmyers at anzavalley.net  Mon Dec 17 08:37:58 2007
From: rdmyers at anzavalley.net (Rodney D. Myers)
Date: Mon Dec 17 08:38:09 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DD2C802-97D1-42A3-B97F-73AD92AE5598@anzavalley.net>

On Dec 17, 2007, at 8:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:

> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the changes  
> they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>
> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into  
> any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes  
> up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>
> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
> installation was any different or better. It's different allright,  
> but not better! Grrr.
>
> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of my  
> linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>
> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>
>
> -md
>
> P.S.
>
> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$% 
> $#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do  
> they just want to annoy?

I believe the correct syntax would be something like;

ssh -2  -C -X -l <username> <IP Address>

At least that is how I have been using it on this MacBook for the last  
year. And this includes running X11 apps like, Synaptic, Moneydance,  
FireFox, & GQView, just to name a few.

Since the upgrade, I've had to drop NFS mounting my debian machine,  
and started using Samba. Much more reliable.

---
Rodney D. Myers <rdmyers@anzavalley.net>
ICQ#:         AIM#:            YAHOO:
18002350      mailman452       mailman42_5

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
         Ben Franklin - 1759



-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 186 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/pipermail/x-unix/attachments/20071217/3b19ac20/PGP.bin
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Dec 17 08:50:37 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon Dec 17 08:50:49 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>

Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
included by default, IIRC.

HTH

Eric

On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:

> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the changes  
> they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>
> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into  
> any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes  
> up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>
> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
> installation was any different or better. It's different allright,  
> but not better! Grrr.
>
> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of my  
> linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>
> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>
>
> -md
>
> P.S.
>
> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$% 
> $#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do  
> they just want to annoy?
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From macdaddee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 09:53:00 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Mon Dec 17 09:53:17 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>

No. I have X11 installed.

Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And that  
doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same Dock  
behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new one ...

My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
installation.

Maybe I can find another ...

- md



On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
> included by default, IIRC.
>
> HTH
>
> Eric
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>
>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>>
>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into  
>> any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes  
>> up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
>> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>
>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>> installation was any different or better. It's different allright,  
>> but not better! Grrr.
>>
>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of my  
>> linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>
>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>
>>
>> -md
>>
>> P.S.
>>
>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$% 
>> $#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do  
>> they just want to annoy?
>> _______________________________________________
>> X-Unix mailing list
>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
> Secure Computing Networks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Dec 17 10:13:23 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon Dec 17 10:13:30 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A1289AA7-F32E-4612-A001-B0E871B29B66@secure-computing.net>

I'm running 10.5.1 here, and everything with X11 works great on this  
end.  A question, did you perform an install of X11, or did you just  
copy the X11.app stuff to your Applications folder?  There are a ton  
of libraries and such that need to be installed for it to work  
correctly with things like ssh.

I've tested you ssh -Y hostname command here, and I can run X programs  
splendidly.  Perhaps some more specific and detailed information on  
exactly what you did during the install of X11, and what you do when  
you try to run an X application over ssh would be helpful.

Thanks.

Eric Crist


On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:

> No. I have X11 installed.
>
> Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And that  
> doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same Dock  
> behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new one ...
>
> My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
> installation.
>
> Maybe I can find another ...
>
> - md
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
>> included by default, IIRC.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>
>>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>>>
>>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into  
>>> any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes  
>>> up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
>>> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>>
>>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>>> installation was any different or better. It's different allright,  
>>> but not better! Grrr.
>>>
>>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of  
>>> my linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>>
>>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>>
>>>
>>> -md
>>>
>>> P.S.
>>>
>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
>>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
>>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
>>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$% 
>>> $#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or  
>>> do they just want to annoy?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>
>> -----
>> Eric F Crist
>> Secure Computing Networks
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> X-Unix mailing list
>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From bpm-list-osx-unix at 4321.tv  Mon Dec 17 10:27:51 2007
From: bpm-list-osx-unix at 4321.tv (Brian Medley)
Date: Mon Dec 17 10:28:50 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 12:53:00PM -0500, Mac Daddy wrote:

>From 10.4.11:

*** begin version ***
[bpm@snafu] c:~/bin/Privoxy>/usr/X11R6/bin/Xquartz -version 

XFree86 Version 4.4.0 / X Window System
(protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6600)
*** end version ***

Have you tried ssh -v and looked for clues?  Can you look at the
log files on either machine?


>  No. I have X11 installed.
> 
>  Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And that doesn't 
>  work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same Dock behavior as my 
>  other install so I thought it was the new one ...
> 
>  My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re-installation.
> 
>  Maybe I can find another ...
> 
>  - md
> 
> 
> 
>  On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
> 
> > Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not included 
> > by default, IIRC.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
> >
> >> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the changes they 
> >> made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
> >>
> >> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and everything 
> >> else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into any one of my 
> >> linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes up. Very nice (though 
> >> the new autolaunching of X11 is ... strange ... when you used it the other 
> >> way before).
> >>
> >> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean" installation 
> >> was any different or better. It's different allright, but not better! 
> >> Grrr.
> >>
> >> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of my linux 
> >> boxes, nothing ever comes up!
> >>
> >> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
> >>
> >>
> >> -md
> >>
> >> P.S.
> >>
> >> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS shares 
> >> so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option since it's not 
> >> compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/exports format  just HAS 
> >> to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^& long to get something so 
> >> simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they just want to annoy?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> X-Unix mailing list
> >> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> >> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
> >
> > -----
> > Eric F Crist
> > Secure Computing Networks
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > X-Unix mailing list
> > X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> > http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
> 
>  _______________________________________________
>  X-Unix mailing list
>  X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>  http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-- 
Brian Medley
From macdaddee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 10:33:05 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Mon Dec 17 10:34:10 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>

THAT WAS IT! The old Tiger X11 was still on disk, and even started  
bouncing in the dock when I did an 'ssh -Y <machine>', so I thought I  
had X11 .  But it doesn't actually *work*.

Borrowed a friend's DVD and installed new X11 and now everything's fine.

- md


On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:

> No. I have X11 installed.
>
> Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And that  
> doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same Dock  
> behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new one ...
>
> My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
> installation.
>
> Maybe I can find another ...
>
> - md
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
>> included by default, IIRC.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>
>>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>>>
>>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' into  
>>> any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just comes  
>>> up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
>>> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>>
>>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>>> installation was any different or better. It's different allright,  
>>> but not better! Grrr.
>>>
>>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of  
>>> my linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>>
>>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>>
>>>
>>> -md
>>>
>>> P.S.
>>>
>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS  
>>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option  
>>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/ 
>>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$% 
>>> $#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or  
>>> do they just want to annoy?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>
>> -----
>> Eric F Crist
>> Secure Computing Networks
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> X-Unix mailing list
>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>

From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Dec 17 10:36:19 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon Dec 17 10:42:56 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>

Glad to hear you got it fixed!

Eric

On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:

> THAT WAS IT! The old Tiger X11 was still on disk, and even started  
> bouncing in the dock when I did an 'ssh -Y <machine>', so I thought  
> I had X11 .  But it doesn't actually *work*.
>
> Borrowed a friend's DVD and installed new X11 and now everything's  
> fine.
>
> - md
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>
>> No. I have X11 installed.
>>
>> Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And that  
>> doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same Dock  
>> behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new one ...
>>
>> My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
>> installation.
>>
>> Maybe I can find another ...
>>
>> - md
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
>>> included by default, IIRC.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>>>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real P.I.A.s!!!
>>>>
>>>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>>>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>'  
>>>> into any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it just  
>>>> comes up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11 is ...  
>>>> strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>>>
>>>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>>>> installation was any different or better. It's different  
>>>> allright, but not better! Grrr.
>>>>
>>>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one of  
>>>> my linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>>>
>>>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -md
>>>>
>>>> P.S.
>>>>
>>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable  
>>>> NFS shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an  
>>>> option since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The  
>>>> whole /etc/exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!!  
>>>> Took so #$%$#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it a  
>>>> BSD-ism or do they just want to annoy?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Eric F Crist
>>> Secure Computing Networks
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From dkoller at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 17 12:16:37 2007
From: dkoller at mindspring.com (Don Koller)
Date: Mon Dec 17 21:44:12 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps
Message-ID: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>

Can I ssh (from my Mac -- Terminal) to my new Red Hat Linux 5 server, and
run graphical interface programs (like remote desktop?if there is such a
thing; or Firefox)?
I?m running Leopard 10.5.1 on a dual 2.3GHz G5, with Xcode from Leopard
installed.
I?m a Linux newbie.

Don Koller
Rockville, MD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/pipermail/x-unix/attachments/20071217/bc197e63/attachment.html
From list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net  Mon Dec 17 15:19:47 2007
From: list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net (Eugene)
Date: Mon Dec 17 21:52:10 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>
Message-ID: <20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local>

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 12:27:51PM CST, Brian Medley <bpm-list-osx-unix@4321.tv> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 12:53:00PM -0500, Mac Daddy wrote:
> 
> >From 10.4.11:
> 
> *** begin version ***
> [bpm@snafu] c:~/bin/Privoxy>/usr/X11R6/bin/Xquartz -version 
> 
> XFree86 Version 4.4.0 / X Window System
> (protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6600)
> *** end version ***

BTW, as of Leopard, Apple switched over to X.org and away
from XFree86.  There's been a lot of gripes on x11-users.

> $ /usr/X11R6/bin/Xquartz -version
> X11.app starting:
> Xquartz server based on X.org Release 7.2, built on 2007924


-- 
Eugene
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 17 23:19:09 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:41:31 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps
In-Reply-To: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
References: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <a06240802c38d243db2c5@[192.168.0.7]>

At 15:16 -0500 17/12/07, Don Koller wrote:
Can I ssh (from my Mac -- Terminal) to my new Red Hat Linux 5 server, 
and run graphical interface programs (like remote desktop?if there is 
such a thing; or Firefox)?
I?m running Leopard 10.5.1 on a dual 2.3GHz G5, with Xcode from 
Leopard installed.
I?m a Linux newbie.

Your Linux box will be using its X11 server for its local display. 
It should just as well be able to use the X11 server on your Mac for 
anything it can display locally.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Tue Dec 18 04:21:20 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Tue Dec 18 04:21:26 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps
In-Reply-To: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
References: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <F4588EE8-7B38-4FFD-92C9-0523A17C43CD@secure-computing.net>

On Dec 17, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Don Koller wrote:

> Can I ssh (from my Mac -- Terminal) to my new Red Hat Linux 5  
> server, and run graphical interface programs (like remote desktop?if  
> there is such a thing; or Firefox)?
> I?m running Leopard 10.5.1 on a dual 2.3GHz G5, with Xcode from  
> Leopard installed.
> I?m a Linux newbie.
>
> Don Koller
> Rockville, MD

There's a piece of software call x11vnc that'll do what you're looking  
for.  I use it to connect to my desktop Ubuntu system from home at  
work.  IIRC, you can also install TightVNC.

HTH

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From RussellMcGaha at mac.com  Mon Dec 17 18:01:03 2007
From: RussellMcGaha at mac.com (Russell McGaha)
Date: Tue Dec 18 05:42:50 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <BC5FF962-89DF-425B-80A2-46F9D58BD6BD@mac.com>

Folks;
	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard was  
CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].  join the  
x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more details.

Russell

On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Glad to hear you got it fixed!
>
> Eric
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>
>> THAT WAS IT! The old Tiger X11 was still on disk, and even started  
>> bouncing in the dock when I did an 'ssh -Y <machine>', so I  
>> thought I had X11 .  But it doesn't actually *work*.
>>
>> Borrowed a friend's DVD and installed new X11 and now everything's  
>> fine.
>>
>> - md
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>
>>> No. I have X11 installed.
>>>
>>> Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And  
>>> that doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same  
>>> Dock behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new  
>>> one ...
>>>
>>> My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
>>> installation.
>>>
>>> Maybe I can find another ...
>>>
>>> - md
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
>>>> included by default, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>>>>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real  
>>>>> P.I.A.s!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>>>>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>'  
>>>>> into any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it  
>>>>> just comes up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11  
>>>>> is ... strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>>>>
>>>>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>>>>> installation was any different or better. It's different  
>>>>> allright, but not better! Grrr.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one  
>>>>> of my linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -md
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable  
>>>>> NFS shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an  
>>>>> option since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The  
>>>>> whole /etc/exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!!  
>>>>> Took so #$%$#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it  
>>>>> a BSD-ism or do they just want to annoy?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Eric F Crist
>>>> Secure Computing Networks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> X-Unix mailing list
>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
> Secure Computing Networks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

From RussellMcGaha at mac.com  Tue Dec 18 03:12:35 2007
From: RussellMcGaha at mac.com (Russell McGaha)
Date: Tue Dec 18 05:42:53 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>

Folks;
	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard was  
CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].  join the  
x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more details.

Russell

On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Glad to hear you got it fixed!
>
> Eric
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>
>> THAT WAS IT! The old Tiger X11 was still on disk, and even started  
>> bouncing in the dock when I did an 'ssh -Y <machine>', so I  
>> thought I had X11 .  But it doesn't actually *work*.
>>
>> Borrowed a friend's DVD and installed new X11 and now everything's  
>> fine.
>>
>> - md
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>
>>> No. I have X11 installed.
>>>
>>> Could the problem be that it's the old X11 app from Tiger? And  
>>> that doesn't work on Leopard? It seemed to be exhibiting the same  
>>> Dock behavior as my other install so I thought it was the new  
>>> one ...
>>>
>>> My Leopard DVD isn't with me so I'll have to wait to try a re- 
>>> installation.
>>>
>>> Maybe I can find another ...
>>>
>>> - md
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe it's a dumb question, but did you reinstall X11?  It's not  
>>>> included by default, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Mac Daddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've been liking Leopard at the gui level very much! But the  
>>>>> changes they made affecting my command line use are real  
>>>>> P.I.A.s!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> At home I did an upgrade install of 10.5 over 10.4 and X11(and  
>>>>> everything else) works perfectly! I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>'  
>>>>> into any one of my linux machines and launch an X app and it  
>>>>> just comes up. Very nice (though the new autolaunching of X11  
>>>>> is ... strange ... when you used it the other way before).
>>>>>
>>>>> On my laptop I did an Archive and Install to see if a "clean"  
>>>>> installation was any different or better. It's different  
>>>>> allright, but not better! Grrr.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here if I do an 'ssh -Y <hostname>' and run an X app from one  
>>>>> of my linux boxes, nothing ever comes up!
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody else had this and overcome it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -md
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable  
>>>>> NFS shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an  
>>>>> option since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The  
>>>>> whole /etc/exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!!  
>>>>> Took so #$%$#^^& long to get something so simple up .... Is it  
>>>>> a BSD-ism or do they just want to annoy?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Eric F Crist
>>>> Secure Computing Networks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> X-Unix mailing list
>>>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>>>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> X-Unix mailing list
>> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
> Secure Computing Networks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

From apple.mail.list at oryx.cc  Tue Dec 18 07:14:49 2007
From: apple.mail.list at oryx.cc (Jerry K)
Date: Tue Dec 18 07:14:47 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4767E3E9.6030501@oryx.cc>

Russell,

Thanks for the information.

Do you have a pointer/URL for the x11-users list ?

Thanks

Russell McGaha wrote:
> Folks;
>     For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard was 
> CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].  join the 
> x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more details.
> 
> Russell
> 
From RussellMcGaha at mac.com  Tue Dec 18 07:29:47 2007
From: RussellMcGaha at mac.com (Russell McGaha)
Date: Tue Dec 18 07:30:08 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <4767E3E9.6030501@oryx.cc>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
	<4767E3E9.6030501@oryx.cc>
Message-ID: <4185897A-F3D1-4D3E-A850-FF343FCD99F4@mac.com>

Jerry;

http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/x11-users

Russell

On Dec 18, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Jerry K wrote:

> Russell,
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> Do you have a pointer/URL for the x11-users list ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Russell McGaha wrote:
>> Folks;
>>     For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in  
>> Leopard was CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not  
>> intention].  join the x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list  
>> for more details.
>> Russell
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/pipermail/x-unix/attachments/20071218/26cac63e/attachment-0001.html
From luomat at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 09:16:36 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:16:50 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/07, Mac Daddy <macdaddee@gmail.com> wrote:

> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS
> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option
> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/
> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^&
> long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they
> just want to annoy?

Two things happened with Leopard:

1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works

2) NetInfo is dead as a doornail.

I'd guess that one or the other of those two things will be the root
(HA!) cause of any commandline problems you have.

TjL
From alex at underwares.org  Tue Dec 18 09:20:29 2007
From: alex at underwares.org (Alexandre Gauthier)
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:20:54 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4768015D.1010709@underwares.org>

TjL a ?crit :
> On 12/17/07, Mac Daddy <macdaddee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS
>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option
>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/
>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^&
>> long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they
>> just want to annoy?
>>     
>
> Two things happened with Leopard:
>
> 1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
> ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works
>
> 2) NetInfo is dead as a doornail.
>   
I've been living under a very large rock when it comes to OS X for the 
past months. What replaces netinfo, officially?

--
Alexandre Gauthier
Network Analyst / Analyste R?seau
Services Informatiques



From luomat at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 09:21:15 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:21:22 2007
Subject: Screen Sharing to Windows (was Re: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps)
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712180921i37527b8asd42ddf64a566170d@mail.gmail.com>

Since this is sorta thread-hijacking I figured I should start a new one.

Is it possible to

a) screen share from 10.5 to a Windows XP machine via VNC over ssh?
Anyone done this?  I've got a few Winboxen that I have to look after.

b) If I setup Bonjour on Windows, will those machines show up on the
Screen Sharing list ? (assuming you've enabled them as mentioned at

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20071030092325625
From luomat at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 09:37:47 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:37:52 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <4768015D.1010709@underwares.org>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
	<4768015D.1010709@underwares.org>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712180937je77fca3n90b19c720fa1db9a@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/07, Alexandre Gauthier <alex@underwares.org> wrote:
> TjL a ?crit :
>
> > 2) NetInfo is dead as a doornail.
> >
> I've been living under a very large rock when it comes to OS X for the
> past months. What replaces netinfo, officially?

I don't think there's a 1:1 replacement for any of it.  Here's the
best overview that I've seen

http://www.macworld.com/article/61097/2007/11/netinfo.html

TjL
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Tue Dec 18 11:20:17 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Tue Dec 18 11:20:28 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C006D7F2-2303-4718-B165-98F68497B94F@secure-computing.net>

On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:16 AM, TjL wrote:

> On 12/17/07, Mac Daddy <macdaddee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS
>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option
>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/
>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^&
>> long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they
>> just want to annoy?
>
> Two things happened with Leopard:
>
> 1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
> ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works
>
> 2) NetInfo is dead as a doornail.
>
> I'd guess that one or the other of those two things will be the root
> (HA!) cause of any commandline problems you have.
>
> TjL

Copyrights aside, BSD is UNIX, and OS X has the userland utils from  
FreeBSD.  AFAIK, Apple is getting closer and closer to being a better,  
solid Unix OS, with the same configuration and non-obfuscation as most  
of the *BSDs out there.

Coming from a background of 10+ years behind a FreeBSD CLI, I find  
things getting better, rather than worse.

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Tue Dec 18 11:22:11 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Tue Dec 18 11:22:21 2007
Subject: Screen Sharing to Windows (was Re: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps)
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712180921i37527b8asd42ddf64a566170d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712180921i37527b8asd42ddf64a566170d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FAF91ED0-2DD1-4F55-BA56-DA5650753B44@secure-computing.net>

On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:21 AM, TjL wrote:

> Since this is sorta thread-hijacking I figured I should start a new  
> one.
>
> Is it possible to
>
> a) screen share from 10.5 to a Windows XP machine via VNC over ssh?
> Anyone done this?  I've got a few Winboxen that I have to look after.
>

To do that, you'd need an SSH server set up to accept the connection.   
I do this very thing to administer Windows and Linux desktops at the  
office from home with ssh and some fancy port forwarding on our  
firewall.

>
> b) If I setup Bonjour on Windows, will those machines show up on the
> Screen Sharing list ? (assuming you've enabled them as mentioned at
>
> http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20071030092325625

I haven't tried that.  If it works, let me know!

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From macdaddee at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 21:04:21 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 21:04:56 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] SSH and GUI apps
In-Reply-To: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
References: <C38C4355.2E4A4%dkoller@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <7C32AB8B-3F39-4631-BD77-72C66BA29596@gmail.com>

VNC will let you see the whole Linux Desktop in a Timbuktu-kind of  
way. Check out the "Remote Desktop" System preference RHEL 5 has under  
one of its menus. YOUR PASSWORD IS NOT ENCRYPTED OVER THE CONNECTION  
THOUGH! A security risk. Bad! BAD! You can get around that with ssh  
port forwarding, which is a little more complicated than I will go  
into here. Go a-googling :)

But you can run the apps directly by themselves, which is what I was  
doing in my post. Just do an 'ssh -Y <username>@<machine>' from the  
Leopard Terminal. Then run the app from the command line. ssh encrypts  
your password, and all the data, so the security problem isn't there.

For example, type 'firefox' (or even better, 'firefox &', which will  
let you get your cli back. Try both and you'll see), and firefox under  
X11, from the RHEL5 box you're logged into, will run, sending its  
display to your Mac. If you're a newbie, a good way to really "get"  
this concept is to try a file download in this browser and watch as  
the Save dialog presents you the file system of the remote machine,  
NOT your Mac. It really is running there. You're just getting the  
window.

In Linux, the entire "Finder" and the apps are all in X-Windows, so  
you can do the same with any app (try typing 'nautilus &'). Not quite  
a need for the entirety of the Desktop when you can do this. If you  
can launch it from the command line when you're sitting AT the box, X- 
Windows will let you launch it from ANY command line on ANY box.

- md


On Dec 17, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Don Koller wrote:

> Can I ssh (from my Mac -- Terminal) to my new Red Hat Linux 5  
> server, and run graphical interface programs (like remote desktop?if  
> there is such a thing; or Firefox)?
> I?m running Leopard 10.5.1 on a dual 2.3GHz G5, with Xcode from  
> Leopard installed.
> I?m a Linux newbie.
>
> Don Koller
> Rockville, MD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/pipermail/x-unix/attachments/20071219/e2048ac2/attachment.html
From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 18 11:32:44 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Tue Dec 18 21:12:22 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] 10.5 cli -what's up with 'more'?    [b]
In-Reply-To: <B5B79A18-216A-4EAA-B36C-113EC316535C@myrealbox.com>
References: <855DD0F3-741B-488A-B947-4F4D348F5207@gmail.com>
	<a0624082dc3755c94ce1f@[192.168.1.103]>
	<A0C14EF5-0DDA-47AA-A32B-A22E2B5C296C@myrealbox.com>
	<a0624083bc376d77e9d59@[192.168.1.103]>
	<B5B79A18-216A-4EAA-B36C-113EC316535C@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <a06240810c38dd04c927f@[192.168.1.102]>

At 07:58 +0000 9/12/07, Stroller wrote:

>I think you'll find that RedHat - as most ALL Linux distros - uses 
>the GNU version of `ls`:
>
>   $ ls --version
>   ls (GNU coreutils) 6.9
>   Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>   This is free software.  You may redistribute copies of it under the terms of
>   the GNU General Public License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>.
>   There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
>
>   Written by Richard Stallman and David MacKenzie.
>   $

Had to work on one of them again today, so I grabbed the info.

# /bin/ls --version
ls (coreutils) 4.5.3
Written by Richard Stallman and David MacKenzie.

Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions.  There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE.

# uname -a
Linux xxxxxxxx 2.4.21-20.ELsmp #1 SMP Wed Aug 18 20:46:40 EDT 2004
i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux

-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From baltwo at san.rr.com  Tue Dec 18 23:14:00 2007
From: baltwo at san.rr.com (John Baltutis)
Date: Tue Dec 18 23:14:08 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <20071219051229.9F091107F25@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20071219051229.9F091107F25@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <f05210600c38e747145e1@[192.168.1.100]>

On 12/18/07, Alexandre Gauthier <alex@underwares.org> wrote:
>> On 12/17/07, Mac Daddy <macdaddee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Along the same lines, nice that I can use flat files to enable NFS
>>> shares so I don't need to use NFS Manager (which is not an option
>>> since it's not compatible with 10.5), but GEEEZZ! The whole /etc/
>>> exports format  just HAS to be entirely different!!! Took so #$%$#^^&
>>> long to get something so simple up .... Is it a BSD-ism or do they
>>> just want to annoy?
>>
>> Two things happened with Leopard:
>>
>> 1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
>> ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works
>>
>> 2) NetInfo is dead as a doornail.
>>
> I've been living under a very large rock when it comes to OS X for the
> past months. What replaces netinfo, officially?

dscl-directory services command line. See the manpage in Leopard.
From list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net  Wed Dec 19 04:13:39 2007
From: list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net (Eugene)
Date: Wed Dec 19 04:13:52 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <C006D7F2-2303-4718-B165-98F68497B94F@secure-computing.net>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
	<C006D7F2-2303-4718-B165-98F68497B94F@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <20071219121339.GA204@Macintosh.local>

On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 01:20:17PM CST, Eric F Crist <ecrist@secure-computing.net> wrote:
> 
> On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:16 AM, TjL wrote:
>> 
>> 1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
>> ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works
>
> Copyrights aside, BSD is UNIX, and OS X has the userland utils from 
> FreeBSD.  AFAIK, Apple is getting closer and closer to being a better, 
> solid Unix OS, with the same configuration and non-obfuscation as most of 
> the *BSDs out there.

I think TjL's point is that Leopard is UNIX 03 compliant, which is
(unfortunately) not the case with any free *BSD (or Linux) system

> Coming from a background of 10+ years behind a FreeBSD CLI, I find things 
> getting better, rather than worse.

Agreed.


-- 
Eugene
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
From luomat at gmail.com  Wed Dec 19 10:05:11 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Wed Dec 19 10:23:49 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$% X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <20071219121339.GA204@Macintosh.local>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<d2ecb10b0712180916p6a070f0bo794337bcf0f8a1df@mail.gmail.com>
	<C006D7F2-2303-4718-B165-98F68497B94F@secure-computing.net>
	<20071219121339.GA204@Macintosh.local>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712191005u7ecad07w4114b3353d189487@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/07, Eugene <list-themacintoshguy@fsck.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 01:20:17PM CST, Eric F Crist <ecrist@secure-computing.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:16 AM, TjL wrote:
> >>
> >> 1) Leopard is now Unix, not Unix-like, which is why (as one example)
> >> ps -auxww doesn't work but ps auxww works
> >
> > Copyrights aside, BSD is UNIX, and OS X has the userland utils from
> > FreeBSD.  AFAIK, Apple is getting closer and closer to being a better,
> > solid Unix OS, with the same configuration and non-obfuscation as most of
> > the *BSDs out there.
>
> I think TjL's point is that Leopard is UNIX 03 compliant, which is
> (unfortunately) not the case with any free *BSD (or Linux) system

Precisely.


> > Coming from a background of 10+ years behind a FreeBSD CLI, I find things
> > getting better, rather than worse.
>
> Agreed.

Well, 10 years ago I was using OpenStep, so it's been an interesting
road for me.  I've dabbled in FreeBSD and worked a few Lin*x variants
(talk about frustration, hey everyone, let's change everything in
every flavor!) and joyfully entered the Mac world about 4 years ago,
so it's definitely been getting better since the days of trying to
compile source code on my 25Mhz NeXTStation or my 133Mhz Pentium
(given that even gcc didn't want to compile, getting anything to work
was a major PITA).

However, I certainly think Apple's CLI is moving in the right
direction from my limited experience.  It is weird not to have lookupd
after all these years with it (I used NeXT from 1991-2000 and then
started with a Mac in 2003).  I've actually made an alias
"restart-lookupd"  with the new command in it :-)

TjL
From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Thu Dec 20 03:05:17 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Thu Dec 20 03:05:28 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <69D548EC-8A0E-4DDF-863B-D8E16DECC4E8@myrealbox.com>


On 18 Dec 2007, at 11:12, Russell McGaha wrote:

> Folks;
> 	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard  
> was CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].   
> join the x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more details.
>
> Russell

Couldn't just post here some edited highlights for us, could you,  
please?

I'm already a member of far too many lists.

Stroller.

From RussellMcGaha at mac.com  Thu Dec 20 06:29:06 2007
From: RussellMcGaha at mac.com (Russell McGaha)
Date: Thu Dec 20 06:29:16 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <69D548EC-8A0E-4DDF-863B-D8E16DECC4E8@myrealbox.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
	<69D548EC-8A0E-4DDF-863B-D8E16DECC4E8@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <8C1B3E62-A9CB-45F3-A00C-BC364BD3EFBA@mac.com>

Stroller;
	As soon as I get a little free time I'll grab the fixed summary and  
see if I can post it to this list; will that be OK??

Russell

On Dec 20, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Stroller wrote:

>
> On 18 Dec 2007, at 11:12, Russell McGaha wrote:
>
>> Folks;
>> 	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard  
>> was CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].   
>> join the x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more details.
>>
>> Russell
>
> Couldn't just post here some edited highlights for us, could you,  
> please?
>
> I'm already a member of far too many lists.
>
> Stroller.
>
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Thu Dec 20 13:16:09 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Thu Dec 20 13:16:26 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>
	<20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local>
Message-ID: <B348A030-A345-47DF-A80A-402931E5DEDC@myrealbox.com>


On 17 Dec 2007, at 23:19, Eugene wrote:
>
> BTW, as of Leopard, Apple switched over to X.org and away
> from XFree86.  There's been a lot of gripes on x11-users.

It should be noted that almost everyone else has switched, too. The  
problem occurred a couple of years ago, and probably only just missed  
10.4. I would be surprised to hear that XFree86 is still alive or is  
under any development at all - a number of XFree86's own major  
contributors forked off the codebase and then re-wossisnamed their  
own contributions after the license change.

Mind you, I don't know that this is a reason for Apple to switch. X11  
is very old & stable, Apple probably need few updates from external  
sources and they could probably have forked off quite happily at the  
same time. Meanwhile Xorg's development seems to have been quite  
vigourous since the split, and I would imagine it's developers  
concentrate on Linux and the other fully open-source platforms.

Stroller.

From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Thu Dec 20 13:16:44 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Thu Dec 20 13:16:50 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <8C1B3E62-A9CB-45F3-A00C-BC364BD3EFBA@mac.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
	<69D548EC-8A0E-4DDF-863B-D8E16DECC4E8@myrealbox.com>
	<8C1B3E62-A9CB-45F3-A00C-BC364BD3EFBA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AF4A00BE-D55C-4302-AD51-D28C55699180@myrealbox.com>

Cheers!

Stroller.



On 20 Dec 2007, at 14:29, Russell McGaha wrote:

> Stroller;
> 	As soon as I get a little free time I'll grab the fixed summary  
> and see if I can post it to this list; will that be OK??
>
> Russell
>
> On Dec 20, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Stroller wrote:
>
>>
>> On 18 Dec 2007, at 11:12, Russell McGaha wrote:
>>
>>> Folks;
>>> 	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard  
>>> was CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].   
>>> join the x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more  
>>> details.
>>>
>>> Russell
>>
>> Couldn't just post here some edited highlights for us, could you,  
>> please?
>>
>> I'm already a member of far too many lists.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
From macdaddee at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 06:34:21 2007
From: macdaddee at gmail.com (Mac Daddy)
Date: Fri Dec 21 06:34:30 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <AF4A00BE-D55C-4302-AD51-D28C55699180@myrealbox.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<42E8AE1A-B4FE-4D49-AE40-309D0462CAE5@gmail.com>
	<B3C4367B-1B81-453D-8F8B-83E93EC4968C@secure-computing.net>
	<EC1C2490-2F79-47EE-B710-D0768B99CCDC@mac.com>
	<69D548EC-8A0E-4DDF-863B-D8E16DECC4E8@myrealbox.com>
	<8C1B3E62-A9CB-45F3-A00C-BC364BD3EFBA@mac.com>
	<AF4A00BE-D55C-4302-AD51-D28C55699180@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <DDE4DB7E-AB0C-4ACB-9C9A-547ECDC2D554@gmail.com>

I think the summary you're talking about already exists here <http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=80171 
 > . Is this complete?

  I don't see any problems with Leopard X11. Probably don't use it  
enough. On my Mac, that is. I don't run any X apps locally. Only pop  
the occasional X-app off of one of my Linux servers.

-md


On Dec 20, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Stroller wrote:

> Cheers!
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 20 Dec 2007, at 14:29, Russell McGaha wrote:
>
>> Stroller;
>> 	As soon as I get a little free time I'll grab the fixed summary  
>> and see if I can post it to this list; will that be OK??
>>
>> Russell
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Stroller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 18 Dec 2007, at 11:12, Russell McGaha wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks;
>>>> 	For you that don't know; the shipping version of X11 in Leopard  
>>>> was CRIPPLED [only by lack of development time not intention].   
>>>> join the x11-users list or the new xquartz-dev list for more  
>>>> details.
>>>>
>>>> Russell
>>>
>>> Couldn't just post here some edited highlights for us, could you,  
>>> please?
>>>
>>> I'm already a member of far too many lists.
>>>
>>> Stroller.
>>>
> _______________________________________________

From list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net  Fri Dec 21 06:55:14 2007
From: list-themacintoshguy at fsck.net (Eugene)
Date: Fri Dec 21 06:55:30 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <B348A030-A345-47DF-A80A-402931E5DEDC@myrealbox.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>
	<20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local>
	<B348A030-A345-47DF-A80A-402931E5DEDC@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20071221145514.GB204@Macintosh.local>

On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 03:16:09PM CST, Stroller <macmonster@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
> On 17 Dec 2007, at 23:19, Eugene wrote:
>>
>> BTW, as of Leopard, Apple switched over to X.org and away
>> from XFree86.  There's been a lot of gripes on x11-users.
>
> It should be noted that almost everyone else has switched, too. The problem 
> occurred a couple of years ago, and probably only just missed 10.4. I would 
> be surprised to hear that XFree86 is still alive or is under any 
> development at all - a number of XFree86's own major contributors forked 
> off the codebase and then re-wossisnamed their own contributions after the 
> license change.

XFree86 is dead.  The Core Team disbanded itself in December 2003.

> Mind you, I don't know that this is a reason for Apple to switch. X11 is 
> very old & stable, Apple probably need few updates from external sources 
> and they could probably have forked off quite happily at the same time. 
> Meanwhile Xorg's development seems to have been quite vigourous since the 
> split, and I would imagine it's developers concentrate on Linux and the 
> other fully open-source platforms.

For a more detailed story on the sordid fall of the XFree86 Project:

<http://iiichan.net/stuff/xfree86.html>


-- 
Eugene
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
From macmonster at myrealbox.com  Fri Dec 21 22:10:16 2007
From: macmonster at myrealbox.com (Stroller)
Date: Fri Dec 21 22:10:25 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <20071221145514.GB204@Macintosh.local>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com>
	<EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net>
	<B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com>
	<20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv>
	<20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local>
	<B348A030-A345-47DF-A80A-402931E5DEDC@myrealbox.com>
	<20071221145514.GB204@Macintosh.local>
Message-ID: <4668162B-A35F-43E6-9CA5-8B9C4A00E459@myrealbox.com>


On 21 Dec 2007, at 14:55, Eugene wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 03:16:09PM CST, Stroller  
> <macmonster@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Dec 2007, at 23:19, Eugene wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, as of Leopard, Apple switched over to X.org and away
>>> from XFree86.  There's been a lot of gripes on x11-users.
>>
>> It should be noted that almost everyone else has switched, too. ...
> XFree86 is dead.  The Core Team disbanded itself in December 2003.

Right. So it's pretty daft of these folks griping over Apple  
switching to Xorg, isn't it?

Stroller.
From alex at underwares.org  Sat Dec 22 15:24:41 2007
From: alex at underwares.org (=?utf-8?B?QWxleGFuZHJlIEdhdXRoaWVy?=)
Date: Sat Dec 22 15:25:25 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!
In-Reply-To: <4668162B-A35F-43E6-9CA5-8B9C4A00E459@myrealbox.com>
References: <8A00FEE8-546B-4555-A806-0E2F4A9B575A@gmail.com><EE56D5EB-5AAE-43AF-9EE5-401CA6A40F8B@secure-computing.net><B0A3BDF5-6ADF-4C92-BD46-DA867BAE7FDD@gmail.com><20071217182751.GG485@4321.tv><20071217231947.GA202@Macintosh.local><B348A030-A345-47DF-A80A-402931E5DEDC@myrealbox.com><20071221145514.GB204@Macintosh.local><4668162B-A35F-43E6-9CA5-8B9C4A00E459@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <1967447793-1198365916-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-111271144-@bxe037.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I see it that way, too.

I mean, even OpenBSD switched a few releases back. Even mighty sun offers the choice between sun-x11 and xorg since at least Solaris 10. 

(Also, sorry about the bad reply-above-quote, my blackberry won't allow me to change this :( )
Envoy? de mon terminal mobile BlackBerry par le biais du r?seau de Rogers Sans-fil

-----Original Message-----
From: Stroller <macmonster@myrealbox.com>

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:10:16 
To:"A place to discuss Mac OS X from the perspective of the command line." <x-unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Subject: Re: [X-Unix] !@#$@!#$%$%   X11 (in Leopard of course)!



On 21 Dec 2007, at 14:55, Eugene wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 03:16:09PM CST, Stroller  
> <macmonster@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Dec 2007, at 23:19, Eugene wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, as of Leopard, Apple switched over to X.org and away
>>> from XFree86.  There's been a lot of gripes on x11-users.
>>
>> It should be noted that almost everyone else has switched, too. ...
> XFree86 is dead.  The Core Team disbanded itself in December 2003.

Right. So it's pretty daft of these folks griping over Apple  
switching to Xorg, isn't it?

Stroller.
_______________________________________________
X-Unix mailing list
X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
From avri at psg.com  Sat Dec 22 17:01:17 2007
From: avri at psg.com (Avri Doria)
Date: Sat Dec 22 17:01:30 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] enabling su/sudo in terminal
Message-ID: <575AB038-9DA5-418E-9F72-C9028172A326@psg.com>

hi,

i just upgraded to Leopard (not sure it wasn't a mistake - machine is  
much slower)
anyway i can no longer sudo.  if i remember there was a way to enable  
it from the
menus in earlier versions, but can't find it.

any clue would be appreciated.

thanks
a.

From groups at pursued-with.net  Sat Dec 22 18:15:40 2007
From: groups at pursued-with.net (Kevin Stevens)
Date: Sat Dec 22 18:15:50 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] enabling su/sudo in terminal
In-Reply-To: <575AB038-9DA5-418E-9F72-C9028172A326@psg.com>
References: <575AB038-9DA5-418E-9F72-C9028172A326@psg.com>
Message-ID: <5AAC2BB2-9F52-4C28-92E0-86F22D2E945A@pursued-with.net>


On Dec 22, 2007, at 17:01, Avri Doria wrote:

> hi,
>
> i just upgraded to Leopard (not sure it wasn't a mistake - machine  
> is much slower)
> anyway i can no longer sudo.  if i remember there was a way to  
> enable it from the
> menus in earlier versions, but can't find it.
>
> any clue would be appreciated.
>
> thanks
> a.

That's odd, it's still there, though the syntax for a shell is a bit  
different: sudo -i.

Last login: Fri Dec 21 19:09:00 on console
fffinch:~ kes$ which sudo
/usr/bin/sudo
fffinch:~ kes$ sudo -i
Password:
fffinch:~ root#

From luomat at gmail.com  Sat Dec 22 19:18:33 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Sat Dec 22 19:18:44 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] enabling su/sudo in terminal
In-Reply-To: <575AB038-9DA5-418E-9F72-C9028172A326@psg.com>
References: <575AB038-9DA5-418E-9F72-C9028172A326@psg.com>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712221918t312d92d3u824440a4b297f424@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/22/07, Avri Doria <avri@psg.com> wrote:
>
> i just upgraded to Leopard (not sure it wasn't a mistake - machine is
> much slower)

What's the machine?  My machines both seem to be faster after Leopard,
a 1G MacBook and a 1.5Ghz Powerbook


> anyway i can no longer sudo.

What happens when you try?  That's the biggest piece of the puzzle.

> if i remember there was a way to enable
> it from the menus in earlier versions, but can't find it.

Does the /etc/sudoers file exist?
# ls -l /etc/sudoers
-r--r----- 1 root wheel 1135 2007-09-23 22:29 /etc/sudoers

Is your user an admin one?

TjL
From seasoft at west.net  Wed Dec 26 13:54:35 2007
From: seasoft at west.net (Richard Hartman)
Date: Wed Dec 26 13:54:41 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Pokey LAN transfers
Message-ID: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>

I'm looking for guidance on how best to copy large data sets between  
macs on a network (Finder, terminal cp, other?).

The setup: Copying from mac #1 (a 2006 iMac running 10.4.11 with  
built-in 100bps ethernet) to mac #2 (a recent PBPro running 10.5.1  
with built-in Gigabit ethernet). Macs connected by a Gigabit netgear  
switch.

I had hoped to get sustained transfers between these two macs of  
50-70 mbps (throttled by the rate-limiting 100 mbps iMac capability).

However, copying a single 2 GByte file, by mounting the (Tiger) imac  
on the (Leopard) MBPro desktop and using terminal "cp" command from  
the MBPro terminal, results in a sustained transfer rate of only  
about 2.5 mB/sec (25 mbps).

So, the questions:

- Is this rather low transfer rate normal for my setup?

- Might I improve it using other tools?


Much appreciative of any guidance here...


Rich Hartman

From nickscalise at cox.net  Wed Dec 26 15:53:33 2007
From: nickscalise at cox.net (Nick Scalise)
Date: Wed Dec 26 15:53:41 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Pokey LAN transfers
In-Reply-To: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>
References: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>
Message-ID: <949F57DA-4CFC-4D96-B332-99637C3D598D@cox.net>

On Dec 26, 2007, at 3:54 PM, Richard Hartman wrote:

> I'm looking for guidance on how best to copy large data sets between  
> macs on a network (Finder, terminal cp, other?).
>
> The setup: Copying from mac #1 (a 2006 iMac running 10.4.11 with  
> built-in 100bps ethernet) to mac #2 (a recent PBPro running 10.5.1  
> with built-in Gigabit ethernet). Macs connected by a Gigabit netgear  
> switch.
>
> I had hoped to get sustained transfers between these two macs of  
> 50-70 mbps (throttled by the rate-limiting 100 mbps iMac capability).
>
> However, copying a single 2 GByte file, by mounting the (Tiger) imac  
> on the (Leopard) MBPro desktop and using terminal "cp" command from  
> the MBPro terminal, results in a sustained transfer rate of only  
> about 2.5 mB/sec (25 mbps).
>
> So, the questions:
>
> - Is this rather low transfer rate normal for my setup?
>
> - Might I improve it using other tools?


Do you have your network cards locked in at their rated speeds? It  
could be that they are not negotiating with the Gig switch properly.

For the 100Mbps Mac, locked at '100MB/Full duplex' and the Gigabit Mac  
locked at '1G/Full?'

--
Nick Scalise
nickscalise@cox.net


From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 27 06:17:20 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Thu Dec 27 06:17:33 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Pokey LAN transfers
In-Reply-To: <949F57DA-4CFC-4D96-B332-99637C3D598D@cox.net>
References: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>
	<949F57DA-4CFC-4D96-B332-99637C3D598D@cox.net>
Message-ID: <a0624080dc3995f4877d4@[192.168.0.7]>

>On Dec 26, 2007, at 3:54 PM, Richard Hartman wrote:
>>  I'm looking for guidance on how best to copy large data sets 
>>between macs on a network (Finder, terminal cp, other?).
>>  The setup: Copying from mac #1 (a 2006 iMac running 10.4.11 with 
>>built-in 100bps ethernet) to mac #2 (a recent PBPro running 10.5.1 
>>with built-in Gigabit ethernet). Macs connected by a Gigabit 
>>netgear switch.
>>  I had hoped to get sustained transfers between these two macs of 
>>50-70 mbps (throttled by the rate-limiting 100 mbps iMac 
>>capability).
>>  However, copying a single 2 GByte file, by mounting the (Tiger) 
>>imac on the (Leopard) MBPro desktop and using terminal "cp" command 
>>from the MBPro terminal, results in a sustained transfer rate of 
>>only about 2.5 mB/sec (25 mbps).
>>  So, the questions:
>>  - Is this rather low transfer rate normal for my setup?
>>  - Might I improve it using other tools?

If Resource forks are not a problem, you'll get fastest throughput 
with standard command line FTP. It's no bells/whistles but makes best 
use of the network.

At 17:53 -0600 26/12/07, Nick Scalise wrote:
>Do you have your network cards locked in at their rated speeds? It 
>could be that they are not negotiating with the Gig switch properly.
>For the 100Mbps Mac, locked at '100MB/Full duplex' and the Gigabit 
>Mac locked at '1G/Full?'

That would mean that the switch has to either buffer up a full MTU 
length coming in at 100Mbps and then squirt it out at 1Gbps for 
packets going one way, or buffer a buffer up packets coming in at 
1Gbps and clock the bits out at 100Mbps. If the switch is very quick 
doing this it will work well, but for domestic switches it may well 
add extra delay. Much better to set both to 100Mbps and let the 
switch just pass it all through.

The MTU (Maximum Transmission Unit) must be the same on both 
computers. Unless you've changed it it will be the normal default of 
1500 for wired connections. If you want to check it, see
<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303192>
It is the maximum packet size, and, if different, the packets will 
have to be buffered up and split into packets of the other size at 
some point, probably in the switch if it's also a router.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From bpm-list-osx-unix at 4321.tv  Thu Dec 27 11:30:33 2007
From: bpm-list-osx-unix at 4321.tv (Brian Medley)
Date: Thu Dec 27 11:30:40 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Pokey LAN transfers
In-Reply-To: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>
References: <81FCE19C-E68A-4307-830E-1FC02702CF56@west.net>
Message-ID: <20071227193033.GI385@4321.tv>

On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 01:54:35PM -0800, Richard Hartman wrote:

You might try rsync.  With the -E I think it can copy OS X
attributes and stuff.  

>  I'm looking for guidance on how best to copy large data sets between macs on 
>  a network (Finder, terminal cp, other?).
> 
>  The setup: Copying from mac #1 (a 2006 iMac running 10.4.11 with built-in 
>  100bps ethernet) to mac #2 (a recent PBPro running 10.5.1 with built-in 
>  Gigabit ethernet). Macs connected by a Gigabit netgear switch.
> 
>  I had hoped to get sustained transfers between these two macs of 50-70 mbps 
>  (throttled by the rate-limiting 100 mbps iMac capability).
> 
>  However, copying a single 2 GByte file, by mounting the (Tiger) imac on the 
>  (Leopard) MBPro desktop and using terminal "cp" command from the MBPro 
>  terminal, results in a sustained transfer rate of only about 2.5 mB/sec (25 
>  mbps).
> 
>  So, the questions:
> 
>  - Is this rather low transfer rate normal for my setup?
> 
>  - Might I improve it using other tools?
> 
> 
>  Much appreciative of any guidance here...
> 
> 
>  Rich Hartman
> 
>  _______________________________________________
>  X-Unix mailing list
>  X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
>  http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix

-- 
Brian Medley
From seasoft at west.net  Thu Dec 27 11:49:14 2007
From: seasoft at west.net (Richard Hartman)
Date: Thu Dec 27 11:49:17 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Re: Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved)
In-Reply-To: <20071227193042.220A12D848B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
References: <20071227193042.220A12D848B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
Message-ID: <1264F072-B419-495F-8756-28368434E16E@west.net>

Thanks to Wing Wong, Nick Scalise, David Ledger and Brian Medley for  
their thoughtful responses. For some reason, Wing Wong's detailed  
response didn't make it to the list and is reproduced (far) below.

Here is a summary of what I learned:

The overhead on my setup of mounting a volume on the desktop (via  
AFP) is evidently enormous:

- Mounting a LAN volume on the local desktop and then using cp on a  
large (2GB) file using a terminal window (copying from mounted LAN  
volume to internal disk drive)  produced transfer rates of only about  
25 megabits/sec.

- Unmounting the LAN volume and instead using scp or rsync (and the  
IP address of the source mac) produced the expected transfer rate of  
100 megabits/sec, which was the speed limit expected by the slowest  
network element in the loop (the 100 mbps nic on one of the macs).

Regards,

Rich

> On Dec 26, 2007 1:54 PM, Richard Hartman < seasoft@west.net> wrote:
> I'm looking for guidance on how best to copy large data sets between
> macs on a network (Finder, terminal cp, other?).
>
> The setup: Copying from mac #1 (a 2006 iMac running 10.4.11 with
> built-in 100bps ethernet) to mac #2 (a recent PBPro running 10.5.1
> with built-in Gigabit ethernet). Macs connected by a Gigabit netgear
> switch.
>
> I had hoped to get sustained transfers between these two macs of
> 50-70 mbps (throttled by the rate-limiting 100 mbps iMac capability).
>
> However, copying a single 2 GByte file, by mounting the (Tiger) imac
> on the (Leopard) MBPro desktop and using terminal "cp" command from
> the MBPro terminal, results in a sustained transfer rate of only
> about 2.5 mB/sec (25 mbps).
>

On Dec 26, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Wing Wong wrote:

> Several factors will limit your transfer speeds...
>
> Based on what you are describing:
>
> imac(100mbps nic) <==> NetGear Gigabit SW <==> PBPro(1gbps nic)
>
> You are hard limited to 100mbps FD, if you are lucky.
>
> The switch will downgrade the port the imac is connected to, to  
> 100mbps FD. The port that the PB is connected to will be detected  
> at 1gbps FD.
>
> When you try to communicate with the imac, your jumbo frames (6000  
> bytes or so, vs the 1500 bytes for a normal 100mbps packet), won't  
> work, so you will also get downgraded to the 1500 byte packet size.  
> Hooray! Since this autodetection needs to be done after the fact,  
> you will suffer a performance penalty for mixing and matching  
> 100mbps and 1gbps gear. For normal web surfing, this isn't an  
> issue, since your performance loss over broadband is so much worse  
> than the performance loss due to the retransmit/conversion.
>
> The situation CAN be helped if you connect the two together  
> directly. They will autodetect at 100mbps FD on both ports and  
> communicate natively.
>
> So... question: How have you mounted the two systems? If you are  
> mounting via AFP/SMB, then you are now also suffering protocol  
> overhead for the filesystem mounting methodology. It's something  
> like 10%-20%.
>
> Basically... your loss looks something like this. Bearing in mind,  
> this is an eyeball figure from the last time I encountered a  
> problem like this:
>
> Typical Packet overhead = ~1-5% (best) , ~5-10% (worse), 15%+  
> (something wrong...)
>
> Typical SMB/AFP/NFS/etc mounted filesystem overhead = ~5-10%  
> (normal) , ~10-15% (tons of small files and atime/mtime records) ,  
> ~15%+ (something wrong...)
>
> So... yeah, given the setup you are describing... losing up to the  
> 30%-40% mark is definitely possible. This loss doesn't factor in  
> the loss due to the local filesystem, memory/cache(since you are  
> using a networked filesystem, there is heavy memory buffering), and  
> issues related to hard disk transfer speeds.
>
> If you want the fastest possible transfer of storage between  
> boxes... or rather, how I normally xfer files quickly between boxes:
>
> 1) setup ssh keys between the two boxes
> 2) use rsync to copy files between systems, scp, or equivelent.
>
> rsync has the added benefit of being able to maintain sync between  
> two machines for a variety of folders.
>
> If you MUST mount a filesystem, and if you can stand to go without  
> certain bits being updated, you can mount a remote filesystem as  
> either read-only, or with noatime, nomtime, so that each read isn't  
> prefixed/postfixed with a write to the source machine to update  
> it's "last accessed" time bits.
>
> The other option would be to attach a USB2.0 Gigabit network  
> adapter to the imac, or use FW networking between the Macs. The  
> adventurous might want to give FW based networking a try, since  
> it's natively supported on the Mac platforms. While the top speed  
> is 400mbps and 800mbps, depending on the cards, you might be able  
> to get some serious performance boost since the processing is done  
> by the firewire chipsets and not by the CPU, thus allowing things  
> like DMA.
>
> Good luck!
>
From luomat at gmail.com  Thu Dec 27 19:12:02 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Thu Dec 27 19:12:11 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix] Re: Pokey
	LAN transfers (Resolved))
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>

Since the previous issue is resolved, I wonder if I can fork the
discussion to a somewhat related topic:

I have a large amount of data (GBs and GBs) spread across several
external HDs, some USB2, some Firewire 400.

I am trying to consolidate them and organize them so that similar data
is on the same drives, i.e. TV shows on one, movies on another, short
home movies from our digital camera on another, etc.

These range from a folder with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of
smaller files (under 200mb) to folders with a bunch of DVD rips (4-8GB
but a few files).

All of the drives are HFS+ Journaled, attached to a 2.8Ghz iMac
running Leopard either by USB (powered hubs) or daily chained Firewire
drives.

I've pretty much given up on using Finder because it gives such
useless error messages, and am using 'mv -iv' in Terminal.

Is there a better/faster way to do this?

Thanks!

TjL
From luomat at gmail.com  Thu Dec 27 19:16:12 2007
From: luomat at gmail.com (TjL)
Date: Thu Dec 27 19:16:18 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Re: Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved)
In-Reply-To: <1264F072-B419-495F-8756-28368434E16E@west.net>
References: <20071227193042.220A12D848B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<1264F072-B419-495F-8756-28368434E16E@west.net>
Message-ID: <d2ecb10b0712271916u4b6b8c91p91f3dda18ccea5b3@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/27/07, Richard Hartman <seasoft@west.net> wrote:

> - Unmounting the LAN volume and instead using scp or rsync (and the
> IP address of the source mac) produced the expected transfer rate of
> 100 megabits/sec, which was the speed limit expected by the slowest
> network element in the loop (the 100 mbps nic on one of the macs).


Someone else had suggested FTP.  Would it work similarly well?

I don't know much about this, but it would seem to me that scp would
be slower if there's encryption going on.  rsync would, I assume, be
faster than scp, but would rsync and ftp be comparable?

Am I off-base?

Thanks

TjL
From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 28 01:27:41 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Fri Dec 28 01:50:20 2007
Subject: [X-Unix] Re: Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved)
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712271916u4b6b8c91p91f3dda18ccea5b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071227193042.220A12D848B@listserver.themacintoshguy.com>
	<1264F072-B419-495F-8756-28368434E16E@west.net>
	<d2ecb10b0712271916u4b6b8c91p91f3dda18ccea5b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06240800c39a6de849d8@[192.168.0.7]>

At 22:16 -0500 27/12/07, TjL wrote:
>On 12/27/07, Richard Hartman <seasoft@west.net> wrote:
>>  - Unmounting the LAN volume and instead using scp or rsync (and the
>>  IP address of the source mac) produced the expected transfer rate of
>>  100 megabits/sec, which was the speed limit expected by the slowest
>>  network element in the loop (the 100 mbps nic on one of the macs).
>Someone else had suggested FTP.  Would it work similarly well?
>
>I don't know much about this, but it would seem to me that scp would
>be slower if there's encryption going on.  rsync would, I assume, be
>faster than scp, but would rsync and ftp be comparable?

scp does have the encryption overhead. CPUs are fast, but encryption 
will be a measurable overhead for a 1Gbps network connection. The 
network handles data one bit at a time. The encryption works on 32 or 
64 bits at a time at a clock speed of up to about twice that of the 
network. Any processing taking more than 64 or 128 clock cycles per 
32 or 64 bit chunk will slow the transfer - not even considering all 
the other extra systemy things that including that processing will 
add.

rsync uses extra network traffic to find out what is already at the 
destination.

The only extra that FTP requires is the normal TCP validation etc. 
It's the transfer protocol that gets closest to raw network speed and 
is used to test network throughput.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 28 01:39:52 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Fri Dec 28 01:50:27 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix]
	Re: Pokey 	LAN transfers (Resolved))
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06240801c39a73b1a4f5@[192.168.0.7]>

At 22:12 -0500 27/12/07, TjL wrote:
>I have a large amount of data (GBs and GBs) spread across several
>external HDs, some USB2, some Firewire 400.
>I am trying to consolidate them and organize them so that similar data
>is on the same drives, i.e. TV shows on one, movies on another, short
>home movies from our digital camera on another, etc.
>These range from a folder with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of
>smaller files (under 200mb) to folders with a bunch of DVD rips (4-8GB
>but a few files).
>All of the drives are HFS+ Journaled, attached to a 2.8Ghz iMac
>running Leopard either by USB (powered hubs) or daily chained Firewire
>drives.
>
>I've pretty much given up on using Finder because it gives such
>useless error messages, and am using 'mv -iv' in Terminal.
>
>Is there a better/faster way to do this?

mv between volumes does:
            rm -f destination_path && \
            cp -pRP source_file destination && \
            rm -rf source_file
(from the man page).

cp is the fastest you're going to get, as it knows each file size 
before each new file creation, and so can avoid the time consuming 
task of getting many smaller extents allocated. It will be quickest 
if there is lots of contiguous free space on the destination.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk
From wingedpower at gmail.com  Fri Dec 28 02:14:45 2007
From: wingedpower at gmail.com (Wing Wong)
Date: Fri Dec 28 02:15:06 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix] Re:
	Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved))
In-Reply-To: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7097bd8c0712280214v2125457bl430d23132ac8b1b@mail.gmail.com>

Hmmm

Depends on what you want to do better. Moving files around or
selecting the files you want to move.

I have a similar problem at home... Basically, the ever growing list
of drives from which to consolidate data from... And the ever filling
up drives the data is being consolidated to.

The problem, from what I can see in my setup and the one you are
describing, is one of tediousness... Ie, looking for files and mv'ing
them.

Some thoughts and suggestions:

1:

make sure you know which files are which and that there is no name
collisions. Since you are using hfs+, I'm guessing there is no case
sensitivity...

Your can perform a 'find' against the folders and drives to get a
complete list of file names. Likewise, you can get a nice listing
along with file sizes and datestamps/perms:

# to just list recursively
find /path/to/folder

# to list recursively and give file info
find /path/to/drive -ls

So, let's say you have the following paths:

/volumes/400gbdisk/
/volumes/10tbarray/

You have video/pictures/misc in the 10tbarray device and just want to
fire off a command and let it run without manually searching...

#
find /volumes/400gbdisk -name *.mpg -exec mv {} /volumes/10tbarray/videos/mpegs/

Or, for the more adventurous:

#
for ext in mpg avi wmv mp4 flv
do
   find /volumes/400gbdiskl -name *.${ext} -exec mv {}
/volumes/10tbarray/videos/
done

Note: experiment on test folders first... Just in case. The cautious
will replace the mv with a cp. ;)

You can also add some logic and perform a md5 sum hash against the
files first, to ensure they are unique... Or if two files are
similarly named, determine whether they are the same.

Not sure if that addressed your question or not. :/

You can also employ a local filesystem rsync to transfer files of a
particular extension. The benefit of rsync is that should the
operation be interrupted, you can always redo the command again...
Assuming it is formatted properly, lest you end up with
/volumes/10tbarray/videos/videos/videos/videos....


Wing




On 12/27/07, TjL <luomat@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since the previous issue is resolved, I wonder if I can fork the
> discussion to a somewhat related topic:
>
> I have a large amount of data (GBs and GBs) spread across several
> external HDs, some USB2, some Firewire 400.
>
> I am trying to consolidate them and organize them so that similar data
> is on the same drives, i.e. TV shows on one, movies on another, short
> home movies from our digital camera on another, etc.
>
> These range from a folder with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of
> smaller files (under 200mb) to folders with a bunch of DVD rips (4-8GB
> but a few files).
>
> All of the drives are HFS+ Journaled, attached to a 2.8Ghz iMac
> running Leopard either by USB (powered hubs) or daily chained Firewire
> drives.
>
> I've pretty much given up on using Finder because it gives such
> useless error messages, and am using 'mv -iv' in Terminal.
>
> Is there a better/faster way to do this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> TjL
> _______________________________________________
> X-Unix mailing list
> X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
>


-- 
Wing Wong
wingedpower@gmail.com
From wingedpower at gmail.com  Fri Dec 28 02:19:39 2007
From: wingedpower at gmail.com (Wing Wong)
Date: Fri Dec 28 02:19:45 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix] Re:
	Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved))
In-Reply-To: <7097bd8c0712280214v2125457bl430d23132ac8b1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7097bd8c0712280214v2125457bl430d23132ac8b1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7097bd8c0712280219g6b69f772la863cb3f8815a53d@mail.gmail.com>

:p just noticed... On each of the find statement lines, they need to
be terminated with:  \; where there is an exec.

So:

find /path -exec touch {} \;

Sorry for the typo ommission.

Wing

On 12/28/07, Wing Wong <wingedpower@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmmm
>
> Depends on what you want to do better. Moving files around or
> selecting the files you want to move.
>
> I have a similar problem at home... Basically, the ever growing list
> of drives from which to consolidate data from... And the ever filling
> up drives the data is being consolidated to.
>
> The problem, from what I can see in my setup and the one you are
> describing, is one of tediousness... Ie, looking for files and mv'ing
> them.
>
> Some thoughts and suggestions:
>
> 1:
>
> make sure you know which files are which and that there is no name
> collisions. Since you are using hfs+, I'm guessing there is no case
> sensitivity...
>
> Your can perform a 'find' against the folders and drives to get a
> complete list of file names. Likewise, you can get a nice listing
> along with file sizes and datestamps/perms:
>
> # to just list recursively
> find /path/to/folder
>
> # to list recursively and give file info
> find /path/to/drive -ls
>
> So, let's say you have the following paths:
>
> /volumes/400gbdisk/
> /volumes/10tbarray/
>
> You have video/pictures/misc in the 10tbarray device and just want to
> fire off a command and let it run without manually searching...
>
> #
> find /volumes/400gbdisk -name *.mpg -exec mv {}
> /volumes/10tbarray/videos/mpegs/
>
> Or, for the more adventurous:
>
> #
> for ext in mpg avi wmv mp4 flv
> do
>    find /volumes/400gbdiskl -name *.${ext} -exec mv {}
> /volumes/10tbarray/videos/
> done
>
> Note: experiment on test folders first... Just in case. The cautious
> will replace the mv with a cp. ;)
>
> You can also add some logic and perform a md5 sum hash against the
> files first, to ensure they are unique... Or if two files are
> similarly named, determine whether they are the same.
>
> Not sure if that addressed your question or not. :/
>
> You can also employ a local filesystem rsync to transfer files of a
> particular extension. The benefit of rsync is that should the
> operation be interrupted, you can always redo the command again...
> Assuming it is formatted properly, lest you end up with
> /volumes/10tbarray/videos/videos/videos/videos....
>
>
> Wing
>
>
>
>
> On 12/27/07, TjL <luomat@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since the previous issue is resolved, I wonder if I can fork the
> > discussion to a somewhat related topic:
> >
> > I have a large amount of data (GBs and GBs) spread across several
> > external HDs, some USB2, some Firewire 400.
> >
> > I am trying to consolidate them and organize them so that similar data
> > is on the same drives, i.e. TV shows on one, movies on another, short
> > home movies from our digital camera on another, etc.
> >
> > These range from a folder with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of
> > smaller files (under 200mb) to folders with a bunch of DVD rips (4-8GB
> > but a few files).
> >
> > All of the drives are HFS+ Journaled, attached to a 2.8Ghz iMac
> > running Leopard either by USB (powered hubs) or daily chained Firewire
> > drives.
> >
> > I've pretty much given up on using Finder because it gives such
> > useless error messages, and am using 'mv -iv' in Terminal.
> >
> > Is there a better/faster way to do this?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > TjL
> > _______________________________________________
> > X-Unix mailing list
> > X-Unix@listserver.themacintoshguy.com
> > http://listserver.themacintoshguy.com/mailman/listinfo/x-unix
> >
>
>
> --
> Wing Wong
> wingedpower@gmail.com
>


-- 
Wing Wong
wingedpower@gmail.com
From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Dec 28 06:23:01 2007
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Fri Dec 28 06:23:09 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix] Re:
	Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved))
In-Reply-To: <a06240801c39a73b1a4f5@[192.168.0.7]>
References: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<a06240801c39a73b1a4f5@[192.168.0.7]>
Message-ID: <8360A5C7-07AD-4F93-882D-3B71EBE6C662@secure-computing.net>


On Dec 28, 2007, at 3:39 AM, David Ledger wrote:

> At 22:12 -0500 27/12/07, TjL wrote:
>> I have a large amount of data (GBs and GBs) spread across several
>> external HDs, some USB2, some Firewire 400.
>> I am trying to consolidate them and organize them so that similar  
>> data
>> is on the same drives, i.e. TV shows on one, movies on another, short
>> home movies from our digital camera on another, etc.
>> These range from a folder with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of
>> smaller files (under 200mb) to folders with a bunch of DVD rips  
>> (4-8GB
>> but a few files).
>> All of the drives are HFS+ Journaled, attached to a 2.8Ghz iMac
>> running Leopard either by USB (powered hubs) or daily chained  
>> Firewire
>> drives.
>>
>> I've pretty much given up on using Finder because it gives such
>> useless error messages, and am using 'mv -iv' in Terminal.
>>
>> Is there a better/faster way to do this?
>
> mv between volumes does:
>           rm -f destination_path && \
>           cp -pRP source_file destination && \
>           rm -rf source_file
> (from the man page).
>
> cp is the fastest you're going to get, as it knows each file size  
> before each new file creation, and so can avoid the time consuming  
> task of getting many smaller extents allocated. It will be quickest  
> if there is lots of contiguous free space on the destination.
>
> David

Please note that this is definately NOT the way to do this for same- 
partition moves, mv is the fastest, as it only changes the pointers  
and no data is actually moved on the hard drive.

-----
Eric F Crist
Secure Computing Networks


From dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 28 08:02:46 2007
From: dledger at ivdcs.demon.co.uk (David Ledger)
Date: Fri Dec 28 13:08:31 2007
Subject: Copying Large Amounts of data via USB/FW (was Re: [X-Unix]
	Re: 	Pokey LAN transfers (Resolved))
In-Reply-To: <7097bd8c0712280214v2125457bl430d23132ac8b1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2ecb10b0712271912r602055btd1138e41530bbd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7097bd8c0712280214v2125457bl430d23132ac8b1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06240808c39accb68253@[192.168.0.7]>

At 02:14 -0800 28/12/07, Wing Wong wrote:
<snip>
>for ext in mpg avi wmv mp4 flv
>do
>    find /volumes/400gbdiskl -name *.${ext} -exec mv {}
>/volumes/10tbarray/videos/
>done

Or just (all on one line)

find /volumes/400gbdiskl \( -name \*.mpg -o -name \*.avi -o  -name 
\*.wmv -o -name \*.mp4 -o  -name \*. flv \) -exec mv {} 
/volumes/10tbarray/videos/ \;

will do it all on one pass.

Note that the '\' before the '*' is neccessary if issued while in any 
directory containing files with those extensions in either case.

David


-- 
David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
david.ledger@ivdcs.co.uk
www.ivdcs.co.uk