Read this PDF, it very enlightening and, well, its the truth. Please forward to interested parties also :) http://www.ccianet.org/papers/cyberinsecurity.pdf The facts presented are scary considering how our computing environment has evolved and what systems we've been forced to rely on. The recent surge of viruses just sheds light on the dark dirty problem. We should take a look closely at the Source of the problem and stop trying to patch (no pun:) a sinking ship. Questions as to the practices and motivation for those practices need to be asked of MS also. just my 2 cents.... Vince ps. sorry motorcycle lists if this is OT.