Messages like Loren's are the _exact_ reason why the NDA is needed! Academic discussions between developers don't really matter, but when someone posts to a group that includes people less familiar with beta practices, claiming that panther crashes, is slow and lacks support for this and that - that is when it harms Apple! By the way, boot time has never "taken for ever", and it is really no big deal considering waking from sleep takes just a second. There are no beta email groups, because the NDA you must have signed to legally get your Panther copy forbids discussing the prototype even with other NDA signers. This is a problem for programmers who have problem with the new version, but are unable to discuss it on the Apple hosted mailing lists. Lets not discuss Panther until it has been publicly released... / Regards, David Remahl On lördag 19 juli 2003, at 08.48AM, Glenn L. Austin wrote: > on 7/18/2003 9:44 PM, Loren at loren at flash.net wrote: > >> The update won't fix SMB :( >> And it still takes forever to boot. >> Does anybody here know of any beta email groups? > > I think that, since Panther is still beta, that it is covered under > NDA? > > You might want to consider that before discussing it on public lists...